DS9 rewatch

[Ubik]

No one on B5 matches the ham of an angry Captain Sisko.

Yep, Sisko really goes full 'stage actor' on those scenes. And, yes, it's generally pretty over the top.

Both shows have their moments of extreme ham.

[JoeD80]

No one B5 matches the ham of an angry Captain Sisko.

[Ubik]

I like the character Garak, the tailor/spy. He exuded that knowing air of "nobody here is quite like they seem". It's like he was watching the show along with you.

And Wallace Shawn as Grand Nagus Zek was always a welcome sight.

Funny enough I started watching it on Netflix a couple of months ago but I stalled out. I liked it, it's good, but the pacing was a bit slow for me to start binging on it. I switched to watching enterprise and that just flys along. Some shows I reserve for watching on a tablet at the gym mostly, Enterprise is one of them. It helps the treadmill feel less tedious.

Yeah, Garak is great. His general demeanour reminds me a great deal of Katsulas' portrayal of G'Kar later on in B5. In fact, I think you could easily switch Andrew Robinson and Andreas and it would have totally worked for both shows!

In general I think the entire cast of DS9 hits a fairly high standard for TV acting. It doesn't quite suffer from the same ham levels as B5, which I also feel has its charms TBH. I'd miss those British extras from stage backgrounds chewing on the scenery.

[Babel-17]

I was fond of the aide to the Founder

The one from the species that got "uplifted". He really sold the part he played. I can still remember how he described his people, before the Founders breathed sentience into them.

The Cardassians made for good heavies because they were smart, had clever plans, and could often be reasoned with. That sometimes made the plots enjoyably unpredictable. And their grudges usually had some basis in fact. It's not like they had a quota of evil they had to fill.

[Jonas]

The actors who play the Cardassians are generally superb. I wish the writers didn't throw subtlety out the window later on, especially in terms of Gul Dukat, because the Cardassians really are the most interesting part of late DS9.

[Babel-17]

I like the character Garak, the tailor/spy. He exuded that knowing air of "nobody here is quite like they seem". It's like he was watching the show along with you.

And Wallace Shawn as Grand Nagus Zek was always a welcome sight.

Funny enough I started watching it on Netflix a couple of months ago but I stalled out. I liked it, it's good, but the pacing was a bit slow for me to start binging on it. I switched to watching enterprise and that just flys along. Some shows I reserve for watching on a tablet at the gym mostly, Enterprise is one of them. It helps the treadmill feel less tedious.

[Ubik]

That's pretty bloody awful treatment of a writer. I'm sure this happens more than we'd like to think! I guess ideas get recycled all the time. I've seen very similar episodes across multiple shows, and sometimes it's just two people coming up with the same general concept.

I think both B5 and DS9 have had their low points in terms of how certain individuals were treated. I imagine staff writers probably had a better time on B5 though, but equally I still can't believe the whole thing with Netter Digital pushing out Ron and Foundation Imaging. I'm sure if JMS had been aware of the full picture, it'd never have happened.

Anyhow, show politics aside, I'm still enjoying the DS9 re-watch, so feel free to chip in on discussing the show itself.

[Babel-17]

SF author Daniel Keys Moran's happy fun times with DS9 and Paramount

http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmnonfic/inj-1.html

From: Daniel Keys Moran
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 05:31:00 UTC

I want to take the time to let those of you, particularly writers, thinking of dealing with the STAR TREK franchise, know about my recent experience.

A couple years ago, when DS9 was young (4-5 episodes old), my friend Lynn Barker and I went down there to pitch. I took two stories with me, "Injustice," and "The Stopping Point." The individuals present at the pitch were Robert Wolfe, and Evan Somers.

When I finished pitching my two episodes, they were very impressed. Robert Wolf told me that "Injustice" and "Stopping Point" were the two best stories they had seen out of some 200 pitch meetings to that time. "Stopping Point" they felt needed some work; "Injustice," however, they went so far as to say, "This is going to go." (This was hardly a contract, and I didn't take it as one; neither of them had the authority to do that, and they were clear that "Injustice" would have to be approved by Michael Piller.)

They asked me to leave a copy of "Injustice" with them; I wouldn't, since D.C. Fontana had warned me not to. I went home from the pitch, and there was a message waiting for me from Evan Somers. I called Paramount; Evan asked me to read "Injustice" to him again, while he typed it up. I hesitated, but went ahead -- they seemed so sure it was a sale.

Hilarity (by which I mean a travesty) ensues.

http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmnonfic/inj-2.html

From: Daniel Keys Moran
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 04:05:53 -0500

Well, this is going to surprise some of you, and appall others ...

About a month ago, my agent's assistant called me and left me a message telling me that Paramount was trying to reach me in regards to something pitched over there, years and years ago. I couldn't imagine what it was -- The Long Run screenplay? Street Angel? (The most non-commercial piece of anything I ever put down on paper -- movie about four homeless people robbing a bank to pay for the burial of another homeless man who had died of AIDS.) My James Camber novels, perhaps? A three-novel outline for those had been floating around --

The funny (bizarre, in a way the TV industry excels at) resolution.

P.S. http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmnonfic/

DKM also made available the original pitches (in the fiction archive) of the story idea mentioned above. This ultimately became the episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine titled Hard Time.

Review of Hard Time.

Production information for Hard Time.

http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmfic/ht-1.html

http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmfic/ht-2.html

The review, and production information, links are dead, sadly. But by googling other reviews can be found. It was a powerful episode. IIRC the new Outer Limits had a similar episode with the actor who played Niles Crane on Frasier, David Hyde Pierce, and it too had a large effect on me. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0667983/combined

http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-ds9/s4/hardtime.php

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/star-trek-deep-space-nine-rules-of-engagementhard--92260

Edit: Hah, I just spotted this: "Babylon 5, on the other hand, is pretty cool ..." The very last sentence here: http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmnonfic/inj-1.html

[Ubik]

DS9 is odd. In some ways, the initial setup - Bajor wanting to join the Federation, lingering issues from the occupation, etc. - is much more interesting than what comes later. But the actual storytelling quality later on is much better, so all the Dominion War stuff, while less intellectually complex than it pretends to be, is more enjoyable.

Yes, absolutely. It poses some really interesting questions and has more than a few parallels to WWII, especially concerning a lingering legacy of war crimes and people coming to terms with the loss of life and brutality of occupation.

[philosophical rant incoming]

The big problem I see with DS9, and what distinguishes it from B5, is the central question it asks. B5 asks: have we abandoned our principles? DS9 asks: should be abandon our principles? B5 is and remains radical in that questions the system; DS9 is a kind of proto-BSG, anticipating that show's "what if every horrible reactionary idea ever was true after all?"

The other thing about DS9 is that it fundamentally alters the basic idea of the Federation; instead of representing what we could be, it represents what we currently are, i.e. the Federation is a Western liberal democracy, not a post-scarcity humanist utopia. That's particularly apparent in episodes dealing with "political" problems that such a society simply wouldn't face - because some problems do have technological solutions, which the writers don't seem to be capable of understanding beyond the most basic level of fixing crap on the station. That technophobia is another way in which it anticipates the all-out Luddite lunacy of BSG. ("Bajor doesn't have enough replicators!" "Why don't we just give them more? We're a galaxy-spanning post-scarcity society that values life." "BUT IS TECHNOLOGY GOOD?" Yeah, deep.)

People keep saying that DS9 is great because it questions things, but the things it's questioning are hope, progress, our ability to solve problems, the idea of a better society. Whereas TNG's vision of the Federation is truly challenging, because it highlights the problems of our society through sheer contrast. (When it's well-written, of course. DS9 contains much better writing, better characters, better everything except, you know, core philosophical ideas.)

Of course, I'm saying that as someone who's watched DS9 two or three times, and who can get emotional listening to the theme tune. It has moments of greatness. It has a pretty great cast, especially in some of the "secondary" parts. I just wish it had a political/philosophical vision like B5 does. It's not even that I agree with JMS on everything. But in many ways B5 is more of a successor to TOS and TNG than DS9 is.

I suppose a lot of this is to push the 'frontier' vibe of the show. It does definitely depart from the more hopeful Trek view for something more fractured and potentially slightly more ‘edgy’. Stuff is broken, stuff doesn’t work… life is hard from time to time… Plus, the introduction of antagonists like The Dominion and The Marquis are used to add excitement. I just hit S3 and it does ramp up very nicely; there’s more to chew on other than ‘problem of the week’. I think it still stands up better than much of TNG. The political set up makes for diplomatic situations and woes that aren't so easily solved.

But yes, point taken that some problems on Bajor would be more easily solved by some replicators. But those bajorans, they like farming and stuff. Hahaha…

[Jonas]

DS9 is odd. In some ways, the initial setup - Bajor wanting to join the Federation, lingering issues from the occupation, etc. - is much more interesting than what comes later. But the actual storytelling quality later on is much better, so all the Dominion War stuff, while less intellectually complex than it pretends to be, is more enjoyable.

[philosophical rant incoming]

The big problem I see with DS9, and what distinguishes it from B5, is the central question it asks. B5 asks: have we abandoned our principles? DS9 asks: should be abandon our principles? B5 is and remains radical in that questions the system; DS9 is a kind of proto-BSG, anticipating that show's "what if every horrible reactionary idea ever was true after all?"

The other thing about DS9 is that it fundamentally alters the basic idea of the Federation; instead of representing what we could be, it represents what we currently are, i.e. the Federation is a Western liberal democracy, not a post-scarcity humanist utopia. That's particularly apparent in episodes dealing with "political" problems that such a society simply wouldn't face - because some problems do have technological solutions, which the writers don't seem to be capable of understanding beyond the most basic level of fixing crap on the station. That technophobia is another way in which it anticipates the all-out Luddite lunacy of BSG. ("Bajor doesn't have enough replicators!" "Why don't we just give them more? We're a galaxy-spanning post-scarcity society that values life." "BUT IS TECHNOLOGY GOOD?" Yeah, deep.)

People keep saying that DS9 is great because it questions things, but the things it's questioning are hope, progress, our ability to solve problems, the idea of a better society. Whereas TNG's vision of the Federation is truly challenging, because it highlights the problems of our society through sheer contrast. (When it's well-written, of course. DS9 contains much better writing, better characters, better everything except, you know, core philosophical ideas.)

Of course, I'm saying that as someone who's watched DS9 two or three times, and who can get emotional listening to the theme tune. It has moments of greatness. It has a pretty great cast, especially in some of the "secondary" parts. I just wish it had a political/philosophical vision like B5 does. It's not even that I agree with JMS on everything. But in many ways B5 is more of a successor to TOS and TNG than DS9 is.

[WorkerCaste]

I gave up on DS9 partway through the run. I actually really liked the political story lines with the Cardassians in the beginning, but then grew less enchanted with the Dominion (do I remember that correctly) War.

I stayed with it longer than I stayed with Voyager or Enterprise, though. :-)

[Ubik]

So far, this is a smarter show than I remember.

There are thin threads of larger plots (Odo's origin) and the wormhole entities / orbs. These are only touched on tangentially, but here's less of a 'hard reset' like early TNG, whereby the events of one episode don't carry over to the next. Of course, big events like Picard acting being assimilated remain relevant, and I noticed this did change somewhat in S6 and 7, but it remained very minimal in terms of a proper arc.

Just watched S1E18 'Duet' which deals with the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, war crimes, forced labour camps and survivor's guilt. Some obvious parallels to Auschwitz and WWII. A nicely written episode which adds some depth to Kira.

I remember disliking the 'soap'-ish nature of DS9 when I watched in my teens. The endless talking and lack of action frustrated me somewhat. It's better than I remember it being.

[Ubik]

DS9 may have had more money put into its sets, but what I really notice each time is how much better B5's lighting and cinematography are. B5 has a lot of texture, whereas DS9 even at its best looks grey and dull in that old televisiony way. (TNG's aesthetic works a lot better in its own context.)

I've noticed this a lot whilst watching DS9 today, I found myself reaching for the contrast controls on my monitor only to discover they were already maxed out! Yes, DS9 is shot very 'dark' and is very muted when they're on the station itself. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to make it look a bit more 'frontier' like.

[Triple F]

Yeah, I’d imagine that would a sizeable bit of it as well. The skill set brought in by the likes of Iacovelli, and his theatre experience, also got that whole side of things moving like a well oiled machine. Didn’t he say something about (due to his involvement with both) that B5 became almost a bridge for folks who were wanting to cross over to television from theatre, and how he lost some when they got a bit of experience under their belt as he couldn’t provide the money offered by other TV shows.

[Jonas]

I'm guessing John Iacovelli had a lot to do with it as well. The B5 sets functioned like theatrical sets do - all that matters is they look good to the audience, even if they're made out of ridiculous materials.

They were also designed to be flexible, easy to shoot in, easy to re-use, which the DS9 sets really weren't.

The craftsmanship on the DS9 sets is evident, and the design is actually really cool, but in the end they don't function half as well.

Then again, I suspect that if DS9's set were lit and shot like B5's (proper shadows and strong light sources, not that diffuse look; loads of colours; a more fluid camera), they'd look spectacular.