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SENSE8 Finale Discussion- SPOILERS

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  • Jonas
    replied
    Am I the only one who, looking back at the show, feels kind of weird about it? Like there's a real disconnect between the show and the finale, and like the finale has really coloured my impression of the show?

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  • Hypatia
    replied
    Thanks, I will put that on my list of things to hunt down and watch. The Dollhouse really should be darker, I'd think. But then, I wish they hadn't changed the ending of The Magnificent Ambersons behind Orson Well's back.

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  • Ubik
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia View Post
    I saw it on Netflix, so I'm not sure what pilot I saw, probably the one originally aired. Yea, it was not the greatest, but was one that I thought had potential. Network ordered changes rarely seems to improve a series. Any series that I've ever heard of, anyhow.
    The original pilot is absolutely worth hunting down. I think it's on the box set so might not be included on Netflix. A quick google search might turn it up online, or perhaps you can buy the episode off Amazon for very little?

    It's a totally different beast and introduces key things about 6 episodes earlier. It also sells the 'doll' concept in a far more believable way, instead of 'yes, we need an slightly unstable individual to prevent a kidnapping or whatever nonsense that first episode was'.

    Original pilot was also darker in tone and just so much better. If the show had aired with this, and followed it, I think it would have been a good deal better.

    http://dollhouse.wikia.com/wiki/Echo_(episode)
    Last edited by Ubik; 10-16-2018, 02:41 PM.

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  • Hypatia
    replied
    Originally posted by Ubik View Post
    Ah Yes, Dollhouse had an interesting take on personality / ability / imprint sharing. Also, great concept that was a tad wasted by the network pulling strings. The original pilot was awesome, the pilot that aired was total garbage. Would have loved to have seen that series roll forward based on the un-aired pilot (which I think appeared on the DVDs).

    Yeah, I wanted grander things from the overarching plot in Sense8.
    I saw it on Netflix, so I'm not sure what pilot I saw, probably the one originally aired. Yea, it was not the greatest, but was one that I thought had potential. Network ordered changes rarely seems to improve a series. Any series that I've ever heard of, anyhow.

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  • sense8ional
    replied
    Originally posted by YorgosH View Post
    Honestly, I was expecting (and dreading) this amount of fan-service long before it was broadcasted. It was expected because it's the first Wachowski-involved project that had that much positive feedback in years, so Lana probably felt she deeply needed to maintain that. Wrongly, obviously.
    Still, we will always have the underlying meaning that I mentioned in my posts above, that I really think was what the finale was about. We will also always have great scenes like the Dani-Whispers scene, the chairman scene, the nightclub scene, the speech about change and most of all...the breathtaking "I Feel You" scene. And that's something.
    It's not so "obvious" lol. The fanservice was well received for the most part. I know because I have posted dozens of reviews in the relevant thread, from all over the world, and the majority of them made mention of this in a positive manner! Phrases like "fan service done right", etc. were often used. And from the early screenings we have reports the fans cheered to the fanservice. And I have read the entirety of the reddit thread about the finale and this wasn't often a point of criticism. So I know that it worked well for plenty of both hardcore fans and the journalists/movie bloggers that might have more distance with the show.

    Not everyone, of course! But it hasn't so "obviously" backfired, is what I'm trying to say.

    The most common criticism I have encountered when reading reviews is the time compressed and somewhat simplistic nature of it (one rocket solves.. everything!). And from fans, it's the poly resolution of the triangle.

    But, I, too, was expecting the fanservice, because Lana kept saying something like "now the fans efforts will forever be a part of the show".

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  • YorgosH
    replied
    Honestly, I was expecting (and dreading) this amount of fan-service long before it was broadcasted. It was expected because it's the first Wachowski-involving project that had that much positive feedback in years, so Lana probably felt she deeply needed to maintain that. Wrongly, obviously.
    Still, we will always have the underlying meaning that I mentioned in my posts above, that I really think was what the finale was about. We will also always have great scenes like the Dani-Whispers scene, the chairman scene, the nightclub scene, the speech about change and most of all...the breathtaking "I Feel You" scene. And that's something.

    -- oh, and the Magnetic Fields scene. And the tourists trojan horse scene. And Rajan's closing line. Generally, little, small bits throughout the episode.
    Last edited by YorgosH; 07-04-2018, 09:13 AM.

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  • Ubik
    replied
    Just to chime in, I largely agree that the episode is derailed a lot to please the core audience, and the minute you start doing anything in line with fan expectation, be it making music, film, TV, art in general... that's a nail in the coffin creatively. I really respect the effort and the fact this got made, but there are just too many things that seem downright silly and go against that carefully thought out first season. I mentioned it already, but the massive gun toting action scenes alone just had me sat there unable to suspend my disbelief. It also seems so at odds with the core values of the show in terms of how the Sensates and their 'normal' companions embrace killing without discretion or remorse. As Jonas said there is also no palpable sense of danger, risk, or cost to the cluster. it's like a weird fairy tale as opposed to the very considered show we started out with. At no point did I feel emotionally invested or on the edge of my seat. It's also indicative of a larger problem, that even in S2 things had started to devolved into the Cluster vs 'the man', and anyone not on the side of good (the cluster) is a binary BAD with very little grey area or nuance on that side of things.
    Last edited by Ubik; 07-04-2018, 01:37 AM.

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  • YorgosH
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonas View Post
    Ironically, to me it seems like it was precisely the attention of the internet, the show as cultural rather than artistic phenomenon, that made the finale self-reflective in a way that sabotaged its own ambitions.
    This was *exactly* my thought while watching the last 20 minutes, and I still think that way, but I am convinced that the episode still hides a layer consisting on thoughts of what the necessity of the existence of sensates is about, and if it's got anything to do with their superpowers or not. And that was something I did not expect from the episode, so I welcomed it, even though the episode did not feel real at all. There is a possibility that this was a deliberate choice. To write this episode in this way in order not to seem ungrateful to the fans, but, by doing this, it seemed ungrateful to and somehow disrespectful of their earlier work. Either way, now I will just have to wait till their next project, after this somewhat bitter taste.

    By the way, I *never* watched the show because of its cultural importance, plus I think its diversity could have been much realer. I have always watched it because of its sincerity and its artistic accomplishment.
    Last edited by YorgosH; 07-01-2018, 05:24 AM.

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  • Jonas
    replied
    I still feel quite... empty about this. It just didn't feel real. It felt like fan fiction, in that it somehow felt external to the show itself. It seemed like something made by fans to celebrate the impact of the show on them personally, rather than a continuation of the story made by the same people. It's like a subtle shift of perspective happened, and to me it affected everything.

    The worst part, I think, is that all the painful intensity of the show seems to have been drained out. The sense of danger, of suffering, of the immense cost of fighting back. It's weird that a show that was so much about the underdogs, the oppressed, ends with the government throwing them a party in the Eiffel Tower because they blew up a bureaucrat with a rocket launcher. Come to think of it, the lifestyle of the characters in the finale looks like they're all Instagram celebrities. I know that can be justified in the story, to a degree, but it feels off.

    I don't think the Wachowskis are bad at characters, by the way - I love the characters in the Matrix trilogy, and they did a spectacular job adapting Cloud Atlas and bringing its characters to life. And I love the combination of intelligence and craft they bring to their work. That was evident all throughout the first two seasons of Sense8.

    Ironically, to me it seems like it was precisely the attention of the internet, the show as cultural rather than artistic phenomenon, that made the finale self-reflective in a way that sabotaged its own ambitions.

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  • YorgosH
    replied
    Replying to the three preceding posts:

    Yes, the whole production of the finale was a great achievement, and I'm fully aware of that. I mostly wish the Lila subplot was done and over with much faster and without that action scene, because they obviously didn't even have time to do it right (I love their action scenes, most of the time) and because they could have used those 10 minutes to do something more substantial. If that was different, I would be almost fully content with the finale, but I never trust the Wachowskis to prioritize correctly, and I say that lovingly, haha (that's why I really wish Straczynski was equally involved).

    Now, Sense8 comes third on my personal list of the best things the Wachowskis have done, after Revolutions on the first place (yes, really) and Speed Racer on the second one (could be on the first one instead), and contains two of the most well-made scenes I've ever seen (the whole cluster birth and main characters introduction scene, and the sequence where they re-live their births).

    Regarding to the blockbuster-y nature of their work, that's who they are, and that's why they are not well received. They are too weird for the main audience and too mainstream and pop-based for "cinephiles".

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  • sense8ional
    replied
    I don't think it's controversial to say that for the majority of people (randoms), Sense8 is easily the best thing both the Wachowskis and JMS have done since the 90s.

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  • Ubik
    replied
    Originally posted by Looney View Post
    And I just to replay the tape again, it is also one of the most challenging things they've ever made when one considers how quickly this project was conceived, produced, and distributed. Yes the foundation was already there, but things had to be sorted, condensed, and pieced together in a relatively short amount of time spanning many borders and personalities.
    Personally, and taken as a whole, I think Sense8 is the best thing they've been involved with since the first Matrix film. Cloud Atlas being a close second. But their blockbuster style films ring very hollow for me, no matter what reading you want to apply retrospectively. See the old thread on Jupiter Ascending if you want an in depth look at why I feel this way about much of their work.
    Last edited by Ubik; 06-29-2018, 04:53 AM.

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  • Looney
    replied
    Originally posted by YorgosH View Post
    but still, it's quite interesting...and unexpected, if you think about it.
    And I just to replay the tape again, it is also one of the most challenging things they've ever made when one considers how quickly this project was conceived, produced, and distributed. Yes the foundation was already there, but things had to be sorted, condensed, and pieced together in a relatively short amount of time spanning many borders and personalities.

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  • YorgosH
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia View Post
    That is actually a very good observation. Yea, it wasn't realistic. But it was meant to be a fan pleaser. But I doubt I was the only one laughing.
    There wasn't any sharing between non-sensates. They were all there. Actually, that's what I found meaningful about the final orgy. The fact that it was grounded in reality, and the union was firstly based on couples, mostly between humans and sensates, with no distinction between them. There was no sharing at all, apart from love sharing, as cheesy as that might be for some.

    I think the difference between shows like Dollhouse and Sense8, as far as the multiple personalities thing goes, is that there is none of that in Sense8. The individuals that share bodies and minds are exactly that, individual, independent, discreet personalities that still communicate through absolute empathy, and I think the experiment of the show was to create plot without many conflicts, for the most part (speaking about the main characters). Whether it worked or not, that might need a conversation to be held. What I mean by that is that having different characters accept each other through empathy, without more questions asked most of the time, might seem unrealistic and/or simplistic, but I think that this was the whole point of the show, since the very beginning. (Plus, the Wachowskis aren't great at characters, so they found a way to take a detour away from that)

    All in all, I think, counting the sense8 finale as a movie, it's by far my least favourite thing any Wachowski has ever made, but still, it's quite interesting...and unexpected, if you think about it.
    Last edited by YorgosH; 06-27-2018, 09:16 AM.

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  • Ubik
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia View Post
    That is actually a very good observation. Yea, it wasn't realistic. But it was meant to be a fan pleaser. But I doubt I was the only one laughing.

    I liked The Dollhouse better, actually. But I think Sense8 may be more of a story for the Millennial age.
    Ah Yes, Dollhouse had an interesting take on personality / ability / imprint sharing. Also, great concept that was a tad wasted by the network pulling strings. The original pilot was awesome, the pilot that aired was total garbage. Would have loved to have seen that series roll forward based on the un-aired pilot (which I think appeared on the DVDs).

    Yeah, I wanted grander things from the overarching plot in Sense8.

    Leave a comment:

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