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Does the USA have the stamina for Iraq or is it a quitter?

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  • #1

    Does the USA have the stamina for Iraq or is it a quitter?

    After more than 2 years the USA is having problems policing Iraq and a call to withdraw has been made. Does the USA have the stamina to continue trying to police Iraq? Or will the Arabs Narn like guerrilla warfare once again demonstrate that the USA is a quitter?

    Donald Rumsfeld claims the USA is winning

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4123808.stm


    Rumsfeld: US not losing Iraq war

    Thursday, 23 June, 2005, 19:48 GMT 20:48 UK

    Donald Rumsfeld has said the US is not losing the Iraq war and it would be a mistake to set a timetable for American troops to leave the country.

    To set a deadline would "send a lifeline to terrorists", he told House and Senate committees.

    But the US top Gulf commander General John Abizaid told the same Senate committee more foreign fighters were coming into Iraq than six months ago.
    The hearings come amid waning public support in the US for the war.

    'Damascus focus'

    A series of bombings in Iraq late on Wednesday and early on Thursday killed at least 30 people in Baghdad, while a recent opinion poll showed that 51% of Americans now think the invasion two years ago was a mistake.

    I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago," Gen Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

    He said suicide bombers from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco were entering Iraq via Syria, joining others from Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

    Osama bin Laden considered the USA a quitter that would to cut and run.

    http://www.terrorismfiles.org/indivi...of_jihad1.html

    Page 1

    DECLARATION OF WAR
    AGAINST THE AMERICANS OCCUPYING THE LAND OF THE TWO HOLY PLACES

    (EXPEL THE INFIDELS FROM THE ARAB PENINSULA)

    A MESSAGE FROM USAMA BIN MUHAMMAD BIN IN LADEN
    TO HIS MUSLIM BRETHREN ALL OVER THE WORLD GENERALLY AND IN THE ARAB PENINSULA SPECIFICALLY
    Page 2

    Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence
    Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at
    Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw
    when attacked by coward terrorists".

    We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a
    grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you
    all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut
    took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and
    pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where
    was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in
    lees than twenty four hours!

    But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after
    vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war
    leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of
    international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders
    into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor
    battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead
    with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and
    promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for
    withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent
    of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing
    nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden
    and Mogadishu.
    Page 3


    Those youths are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be how to convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how to
    restrain our youths to wait for their turn in fighting and in operations.
    These youths are commendation and praiseworthy.
    Last edited by Andrew_Swallow; 06-23-2005, 03:27 PM. Reason: Adding blank lines
    Andrew Swallow
    Tags: None
  • #2
    I wonder how many people die daily in street gang fights and drive-by shootings in the USA and how many US soldiers die in Iraq.

    And since when are deadlines set for wars? Or in this case, for terroristic insurgencies?
    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

    Comment

    • #3
      Andrew, please don't quote large portions of copyrighted material. Smaller samples to show your point plus the link will suffice.

      Thank you,
      Jan
      Moderator
      Last edited by Jan; 06-24-2005, 05:07 AM.
      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

      Comment

      • #4
        Not to stray from the topic, but on the message boards I usually visit, it is customary to post big snippets so as to give posters the choice to click on a link or not.

        But while we're on the subject of gripes, why wasn't this simply posted in TRIPT?
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
          Not to stray from the topic, but on the message boards I usually visit, it is customary to post big snippets so as to give posters the choice to click on a link or not.
          That may be so, ZD. The law covering 'Fair Use', however, only allows for unauthorized copying of copyrighted material for use in commentary or criticism, and then generally only small quotes. I prefer to err on the side of caution and respecting copyrights, even if I completely disagree with everything they say. Usually a few well-chosen sentences is plenty to let posters decide if they're interested enough to click on a link.

          Jan
          Moderator
          Last edited by Jan; 06-24-2005, 05:07 AM.
          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

          Comment

          • #6
            Both articles had been cut before being copied.

            As for Osama bin Laden words, on war being declared enemy aliens lose the right to sue - they can defend but cannot start cases. Since this is a declaration of war/jihad his own words destroy his copyright.
            Andrew Swallow

            Comment

            • #7
              Two points:

              A) I think it'd be a little unwise to base life and death decisions on whether Osama calls us names.

              B) Presuming that we're not "quitting", I'd love to hear how we would win.
              Radhil Trebors
              Persona Under Construction

              Comment

              • #8
                Does the USA have.....

                Whoa..........

                "Who will win?" "Who will lose?"

                seems to me that when it all ends (if ever...) the winners will be the survivors out there - but givent he state that iraq will probably be in by then the question probably would become whether you could call survival "winning"...

                damned if you do, damned if you dont - if the US had not gone to Iraq, would the world be a better place for it? who knows.....

                but who to believe..... the US government, or the others, like Michael Moore? I must admit, after reading his book "dude, wheres my country?" one had to wonder - and to this day, I still dont think that the decision is clear...

                ttfn

                Villarestall
                This Staircase has 105 Steps...

                Comment

                • #9
                  The War on Terror probably is a last man standing fight. I expect it to continue for 20 or 30 years . Before then we can destroy the organisations.

                  The organisations recruit the bombers and gunmen, train them, manage then, move them round the world, house them and supply the weapons. Currently the money comes from governments and rich men, although the use of gangster style extortion will probably be used in future.

                  Diplomacy can be used against governments and if they are too slow to react Libya will not be the only country to get its presidential palace bombed. Rich men can buy immunity until a year after the presidential palace goes bang. Then the US Ambassador can suggest to the president where they can find the money to rebuild it.

                  Where the state actually supports the terrorists it may be necessary to replace the government by invading, as happened in Iraq. As we are finding with Iraq both the invasion and the rebuilding will be expensive. The training camps in Afghanistan have been closed down; there are probably many few more elsewhere.

                  According to The Economist page 25 June 18th 2005 most suicide bombers are middle class university students. This suggests that the recruitment organisations are attached to mosques, both official and unofficial, near universities. The mosquesÆ phones can be tapped, rooms bugged and Imams guilty of accessory to terrorism arrested.
                  Andrew Swallow

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
                    The War on Terror probably is a last man standing fight. I expect it to continue for 20 or 30 years . Before then we can destroy the organisations.

                    The organisations recruit the bombers and gunmen, train them, manage then, move them round the world, house them and supply the weapons. Currently the money comes from governments and rich men, although the use of gangster style extortion will probably be used in future.

                    Diplomacy can be used against governments and if they are too slow to react Libya will not be the only country to get its presidential palace bombed. Rich men can buy immunity until a year after the presidential palace goes bang. Then the US Ambassador can suggest to the president where they can find the money to rebuild it.

                    Where the state actually supports the terrorists it may be necessary to replace the government by invading, as happened in Iraq. As we are finding with Iraq both the invasion and the rebuilding will be expensive. The training camps in Afghanistan have been closed down; there are probably many few more elsewhere.

                    According to The Economist page 25 June 18th 2005 most suicide bombers are middle class university students. This suggests that the recruitment organisations are attached to mosques, both official and unofficial, near universities. The mosquesÆ phones can be tapped, rooms bugged and Imams guilty of accessory to terrorism arrested.
                    They picked up a guy here in northwest Arkansas last week at the airport. He was bragging about going to Palestine to fight in a holy war. University student.

                    Also interesting is who is funding the Iraq insurgency (and possibly other terror groups??):

                    Turns out that far-left groups in western Europe are carrying on a campaign dubbed Ten Euros for the Resistance, offering aid and comfort to the car bombers, kidnappers, and snipers trying to destabilize the fledgling Iraq government.
                    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar...23euroleft.htm
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      I can only speak for myself. I am an european (though fellow austrians don't like to be in that community, I do like it) and I am quite left (or so I am told, I see myself more a sensitive, serious and in systems thinking one). I wouldn't support any terrorist cell, no sire. Well, there is some extremism even in the left wing, but to be honest: It is nothing compared with the extremism in the right wing (again: in austria). We had something like occupying buildings, chaining to something to prevent something and the like. Hell, we even had "Tortung" (the act of throwing a cake into one persons face)... but no injury, no killing, no real violence (from the left).

                      As I understand that is not in every country the same, as for Italy e.g. I heard there where some left terror acts and in Germany there is the RAF (http://www.rafinfo.de/), which was quite violent, of course. So I consider your information about leftist sources for terror in the Middle-East, but I can assure you no such money for terror is coming from austria. Again, I want to stress that Europe is - at the moment - no nation but a conglomerate of National States within a free market zone. So you would have to view that suspicion for every Nation if it is true, talking about "European Leftist" is a bad habit, the european parties (which would be the base for every european political movement) are laughable at the moment, nobody considers them as a power, here in Europe...

                      PeAcE
                      greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        And my initial thoughts were correct; funding is also coming from here in the USA. The author of American Jihad was on Day Side today and talked about his book. He says that not only Islamic groups, but also communist and neo-nazi groups are funding terrorists in Iraq. They all have the same goal, but for different reasons. Last time I checked, France featured a lot of neo-nazis.
                        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Remember, one of the areas richest for Islamic fundamentalist recruitment is right here in the good ol' US of A. Islamic prison ministries are recruiting thousands of people fed up with the system in America yearly, and they come out of prison ready to do something to change the status quo. Give us a few years, and I believe they will be trying to change things, with explosive results.
                          "Ivanova is God!"

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Interesting tidbit from Washingtonpost.com :

                            As President Bush prepares to address the nation about Iraq tonight, a new Washington Post-ABC News poll finds that most Americans do not believe the administration's claims that impressive gains are being made against the insurgency, but a clear majority is willing to keep U.S. forces there for an extended time to stabilize the country.
                            (Emphisis added by me)

                            I don't think that we will be leaving Iraq anytime soon. Of course if the Iraqi government thought their forces could handle the terrorists themselves, then it would be time to go. To be honest though, I don't see that happening since the President of Iraq recently stated that he would like the US forces to stay for a while.
                            ---
                            Co-host of The Second Time Around podcast
                            www.benedictfamily.org/podcast

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              I think a lot of it has to do with politics. If we "cut and run," stories will start reading that we abandoned Iraq and made it worse. So if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, you may as well do the right thing and finish the job.
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment

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