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**Towelmaster** · 05-31-2005, 08:43 AM

Erm... Andrew,

Dare I say it? Well why not. For decades the Israeli government allowed - yes even encouraged - their own people/businesses to spy. This was because they considered themselves under siege and the end justifies the means. See for instance how much the 'native Israeli fighterplanes' looked just like French Mirages in the 70-ies. And who is to say they were right or wrong?

So I'm not really surprised that this happened/happens. I am more surprised that it is seen as such a big deal...

**Ranger1** · 05-31-2005, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Towelmaster

Erm... Andrew,

Dare I say it? Well why not. For decades the Israeli government allowed - yes even encouraged - their own people/businesses to spy. This was because they considered themselves under siege and the end justifies the means. See for instance how much the 'native Israeli fighterplanes' looked just like French Mirages in the 70-ies. And who is to say they were right or wrong?

So I'm not really surprised that this happened/happens. I am more surprised that it is seen as such a big deal...

Huh? a couple that made a special trojan and sold it to firms in Israel and some firms in the UK (who know maybe US too),and its Israel government fault again?

You are talking about spying against countries in war times against israeli firms spy on eachother,two total different things.

**Andrew_Swallow** · 05-31-2005, 06:53 PM

Mosrad has been caught spying on both Britain and the USA. People copy their government. If the government spies on friends then companies will spy on their rivals.

**Ranger1** · 05-31-2005, 07:25 PM

Its Mosad,and again,whats that got to do with anything? Israel is a unique situation,when you have few BILLION people who want you dead,is a good thing to have a spy agency...oh yes,we are the only ones in the world who have spies sure.

This is the last ill post on this matter i hate politics (which fuck if i know how politics got anything to do with the actual topic),what a sucky way to start off the day [insert puke here].

**Dr Maturin** · 06-01-2005, 12:22 AM

The Mossad is pretty fucking awesome. I think they're responsible for assassinating that traitor scum Gerard Bull.

But as awesome as they are, no one beats the US in international espionage. We almost never get caught.

As for industrial...when I worked part time at Target a few years ago as a second job, I was in loss prevention. A bunch of peoples of Asian and Latin-American descent were in the store with miniature cameras taking pics of those tags on shelves. That is against store policy. They were from Wal-Mart, my boss told me. So we had to go out there and intimidate them into leaving. Fun stuff.

**Harrdy** · 06-01-2005, 12:29 AM

I don't know if the israeli Government does encourage spionage, but I worked about eight years for T-Mobile (Austria) and we had these nifty language compressors. They could use one physical connection to transmit about three times as much channels as without compression. They used a nifty table for compression, but that's not what I wanted to say. They had a open TCP/IP connection from the Compression equipment to Israel. All the time. While the IT gurus where like wideeyed-shocked. No other company could enforce that kind of open connection into the workings of the company, there where rules that every hardware purchased must be tested in a way to ensure that kind of backdoor is not possible. Hell, I sat three days in Munich waiting for the software gurus (?) from Siemens to compile the Software for our switch so I can compare that version to the one shipped with the equipment, bit by bit. But this little israeli Company had two features: They where cheap and they sold a product that helps you save money. About then I realized that Capitalism is doomed. When you can break your rules that easy - just because of the money - than you have truly lost your soul. It went worse from bad since. Pretty please tell me something nice now... 8-/

Ah, regarding the prior post and the US enspionage: At the radio stations that send and receive from the satelites in europe there is always a small building adjacent. It is guarded and US-Property. They watch every transmission over satelite. I'm quite sure they cannot do that in real time, but there is equipment avaliable to filter for special words. My friend and I make a game out of it: To use as many "bad words" in a conversation over telephone as possible... 8-)

And by the way, our own Staatssicherheit (Austria) is not that much better. They got a big black box in the main switch-central in vienna, connected to a location unknown to the techs there. Seen it, woundered 'bout it.

Funny fact: In the old switching center there are Headphones you can use to connect into a speech-trunk. It doesn't work with modern equipment (digital) without some additional utilities, but the old analog lines are free to listen for every tech there... y'know what? They don't do that. Why? Because it is amoral? No, because it is boring. After you go like: "Whow, I gotta hear unnoticed", the first time you very fast go: "Men, how boring are those people". Talking like hours about their vacation... yessire, the "human condition" *g*

PeAcE

**Dr Maturin** · 06-01-2005, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Harrdy

About then I realized that Capitalism is doomed. When you can break your rules that easy - just because of the money - than you have truly lost your soul.

Maybe we should just reinstate Nazism in your country...

**Harrdy** · 06-01-2005, 12:50 AM

Maybe we should just reinstate Nazism in your country...

Are you trying to be funny or just a dick... I can't sort it out, isn't my native language.

If you are trying to be funny I answer: Well, I would like to see it with humor. Sad thing is ideas like "Race" and social "Class" are coming back to bite us into our sorry asses. Politicans pulling the "National" strings are going into parliament while silent ones dissapear. I surely wouldn't say we have learned anything.

If you are a dick: Maybe you should fight Rasissm (sp?) in your own country. America (I assume you are from there, if not please correct me) is not best known in europe these days for their acceptance of minorities but for the prosecution of them. While media might give you a very narrow view of a country you get the impression that america is in constant fear of the unknown. Homophobia, Nationalism and Antisemitism seem to be on the rise, as well as a hatred for the Islam (which is a very broad spectrum of belief, compareable to the Christian religion, which also has fanatism as extreme). Know that mainly two facts gave birth to Nationalsozialism: Economic Crisis and fear (leads to anger, about the only true thing to be learned from Star Wars *g*) of the unknown. Media and church where against Jews from the Middle Ages. There where times and times again when whole families where murdered, but what made the Holocaust possible was the fact that in a corrupt system one cannot hope to stay uncorrupted. Alone 'cause of peer pressure you HAVE to do the unthinkable... just think about those flags waving from every building in US of A... once they where a symbol for a idea, now you are suspect if you don't have one. If the ideas get corrupted you can walk with them or be alone. Know that the ones not adapting to Nationalsozialism died or left the country(s)...

By the way: Hitler was from Austria and not from Germany. He left our country because he felt "Deutsch" and his psychotic ideas where about how the german military got the "Dolchstoss" by their own politicans. The idea behind is that some Military Leaders couldn't cope with loosing the first world war. They fantasized about how they would have won if only the stupid politicans wouldn't have stopped the war. I was a quite popular idea, however far from the truth. More true where the very unpopular payments to the winning countries. Some said they where responsible for the depression (I don't subscribe to that point of view...). And some nutheads thought the Jews where behind it all. They where the politicans who made the "Dolchstoss" and they have all the money (was the belief). So they thought they had a right to seize "their property" from them... silly, but not a singular event in the history.

PeAcE

**Dr Maturin** · 06-01-2005, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by Harrdy

Are you trying to be funny or just a dick... I can't sort it out, isn't my native language.

As the ellipsis would indicate, it was a facetious comment.

If you are a dick: Maybe you should fight Rasissm (sp?) in your own country. America (I assume you are from there, if not please correct me) is not best known in europe these days for their acceptance of minorities but for the prosecution of them.

Are you kidding? Europe right now is one of the most racist regions in the world, aside from obvious ones like the Middle-East.

While media might give you a very narrow view of a country you get the impression that america is in constant fear of the unknown.

Actually, it looks like the media has given you an incorrect view.

Homophobia, Nationalism and Antisemitism seem to be on the rise

Being against gay marriage does not indicate homophobia...we are very tolerant of gays in our society. Being pro-gay marriage is giving approval, not being tolerant. Anti-Semitism? I don't know where you got that one from. France seems to be the Anti-Semitic nation right now...aside from the obvious Middle-East. And nothing is wrong with nationalism when your nation is awesome.

as well as a hatred for the Islam (which is a very broad spectrum of belief, compareable to the Christian religion, which also has fanatism as extreme).

I think 9/11 made every American a little more wary about Islam, at least for a time (varying from one second to four years). But any alleged and perceived hatred of Islam is not resulting in mass executions or even firings from jobs.

Know that mainly two facts gave birth to Nationalsozialism: Economic Crisis and fear (leads to anger, about the only true thing to be learned from Star Wars *g*) of the unknown. Media and church where against Jews from the Middle Ages. There where times and times again when whole families where murdered, but what made the Holocaust possible was the fact that in a corrupt system one cannot hope to stay uncorrupted. Alone 'cause of peer pressure you HAVE to do the unthinkable... just think about those flags waving from every building in US of A... once they where a symbol for a idea, now you are suspect if you don't have one. If the ideas get corrupted you can walk with them or be alone. Know that the ones not adapting to Nationalsozialism died or left the country(s)...

That statement in the bold is asinine and uninformed.

In any event, the whole point was that capitalism is not to be talked down. What you do when you discover industrial espionage is you charge the perps with a crime. Without capitalism, no society is truly free.

**Harrdy** · 06-01-2005, 01:22 AM

And nothing is wrong with nationalism when your nation is awesome.

You know the fine line between Patriotism and Nationalism, don't you? We in europe learned it the hard way... there is a difference between thinking your country is great and thinking every other country just sucks and/or does it plain wrong...

That statement in the bold is asinine and uninformed.

Sorry, got it from an american... no wait, from several americans. They feel like the peer pressure is rising, but of course I don't know it first hand because I don't live there.

Regarding the "victory of capitalism": You surely do know where that is from, don't you? "No man can serve two masters: Ye cannot serve God and Mammon". Now while I say every one should be free to belief what he want's to believe I see some truth in that old saying. Because if you goal is to amass as much wealth as possible you have to:
* take it from others
* amass it in a save place (so no one can get it)
* saveguard it (with force (police, military, etc.), see point 2)

Now I can see that capitalism is not the final answer, but I see nothing wrong with a free market. As long as it is really free (and not like the real market today with politicans pumping in money so their country stays in the game). I would like to know if you differ between Capitalism and Free Market or if it is the same to you (as it is sadly for a lot of people).

PeAcE

**Dr Maturin** · 06-01-2005, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Harrdy

Sorry, got it from an american... no wait, from several americans. They feel like the peer pressure is rising, but of course I don't know it first hand because I don't live there.

Peer pressure to do what? To try pot, maaaan?

* take it from others

That's called robbery or burglary.

* amass it in a save place (so no one can get it)
* saveguard it (with force (police, military, etc.), see point 2)

That's called a bank, and you don't need the police or military to keep it safe...

I would like to know if you differ between Capitalism and Free Market or if it is the same to you (as it is sadly for a lot of people).

I know that the textbook example of "Free Market" is an ideal, and that its use to describe economies in practice is a misnomer, in that its supporters are for more controls in order to make an "even playing field," so to speak. The freest market is capitalism, plain and simple.

**Harrdy** · 06-01-2005, 02:14 AM

Peer pressure to do what? To try pot, maaaan?

You don't think to often about what you do and why, or you wouldn't ask. People do a lot of thinks without thinking about them, just listen to your friends. When they talk with a person of higher status a lot of the people go like: "You are right, I think alike", while when you talked to them they where like the opposite. That is what I mean with peer pressure.

Another example: While a lot of the ideas of Christianity resemble the ideas of Communism (with the everybody is alike and the damnation of mammon, etc.) you where considered "bad" when you said you are sympathetic to Communism while you where considered "good" when you said you are sympathetic to Christianity. There are "social standards" which are used all the time, if the standards are "bad" (like: "Yews have all our money" or "Our politicans betrayed us") you get a "bad" society (like: Germany before WW2). One can try to hold up his personal beliefs but he is outcast of the society then (happens all the time). I am talking about "everyday people" here, not popstars or politicans (who can change the point of view everybode else subscribes then to).

That's called robbery or burglary.

Jup, that's what I call Capitalism... but a lot of people call me crazy 'caus of it

Example: If there is only one company which produces food and they ask for skyrocking prices and buy off every competition... you don't like that, do you? Because that is what Capitalism is all about. To build a monopoly and get as much money out of it as possible. And if you don't believe me just open your Television Set and look for brands. And then open your Stereo and look again. And then open you Microwave and look... there are only a hand of companies worldwide which are producing most of the appliences (sp?). I worked for Grundig half a year and we produced Grundig (duh), Philips, Blaupunkt and Minerva Television Sets on the very same line with the very same parts. Only the chassis and one Eprom was different. A Free Market leads to good prices but Capitalism leads to Monopolies. (But that's only my point of view and might be irritated because of my experiences in the industry).

That's called a bank, and you don't need the police or military to keep it safe...

Sorry, that's just plain wrong. There could be no bank without a force guarding it. Please think again... (just answer yourself why there are *armored* transports ferrying the money... just 'cause it's funny?)
If you have something everybody else wants you need some force to keep others from getting it. One force is the law, the executive (so called because they are executing the law) or police (from Polis, the City) guards the law while the legislative (Politicans) are drawing new laws. There is an amount of force nessecary in our society for the protection of the people. Just open your eyes.

The freest market is capitalism, plain and simple.

I'm just giving you one example to bite your sitting-flesh (*g*). China is considered a capitalistic force today, but they are a Communist Country. They don't have a free market (lol) and they are no Democracy. Capitalism is possible in Communism, Democracy and Dictatorship. It doesn't tell how free a society is and it also doesn't say how free the market is. It's just a Ruleset (think of the Ferengi Code, if your into that. If not forget this remark).

And sorry, but I think a free(er) Market is possible. And I think politicans should stop pumping money into the economy. It would make more sense to prevent Monopolys...

PeAcE

**Harrdy** · 06-01-2005, 02:33 AM

Oh, by the way... I just thought: You know the last (ok, maybe not the last, but one) time when one set of ideas was considered "superior" to all others? It was called Nationalsozialism. One of the (many) problems of NS is when you think you have already the solution to every problem. Then you stop thinking about how you would like the world better. Bad things happen, but they are not your problem. The ones who get rolled over MUST somehow be responsible themselves (Jews? They stole our money. Homos? They are plain ugly. Roma? They are burglars. Communists? They are thinking wrong!). Because your set of ideas is just superior, there could be no other way doing it.

Pride - is said - comes before the fall...

PeAcE

**Towelmaster** · 06-02-2005, 08:37 AM

Pre-ambule : To the moderator(s) : If This Is A Flammable And Unacceptable Posting Please Edit or Remove At Will. I have tried not to be more blunt than others in this thread but one never knows how a posting is received when it is written in a non-native language.

So before I reply to Ranger1;

On the off-chance that I will offend Z'Ha'dum-dweller I would like to warn Hardy that so far I have not seen one discussion like this that involved Zhd in which he was actually convinced of anything by any other discussionpartner about him making false assumptions about Europe. It makes for great heated arguments but so far it has gone nowhere as far as more mutual understanding is concerned. To anyone who can prove me wrong; please send me the link.

Of course this is Zhd's absolute right as far as I am concerned. It's just that your postings read like you are actually trying to correct the incorrect assumptions about(for instance) Europe that he has. Good luck. According to Zhd's worldview(as far as I have read about it here), Europe is racist, old, over-the-hill and America is better in every way. I think it is called patriottism. Or nationalism, the one is very close to the other one.

BTW, if Zhd is reading this : Europe has just soundly rejected a proposal for a new and first European constitution because - among other things - the damned thing was to vague and Not Democratic Enough. So far the countries that have rejected the constitution do not wish to hand over any official constitutional power to Europe without a sound system of checks and balances. I don't think the Patriot-act was subject to a referendum. A 'war-situation' was used to curtail the freedom of all americans permanently.
Why do you call Europe less free then America? Do you define Freedom as Unlimited Capitalism? What about freedom of speech? What about freedom against arrest without charges(...). What about freedom against torture(...).

As we say in Holland "I think you have butter on your head".

One thing that you do not include in your definition(s) of freedom(as in your observation "Without capitalism there can be no...") is that without morals capitalism is a monster that will destroy us all. Just like any other system. Without moral values that transcend the capitalism per se it is no different than any other system. "Thou shalt not kill" Has nothing to do with capitalism but it is an essential rule, necessary for the system to work. What I read in your postings is that you do not want freedom, your want the survival of the fittest. Personally I'm more a fan of Libertarianism.

But enough said. As I said; please let no one think that this in any way dimishes anyones right to have his or her opinions. I am a great admirer of the work of Voltaire. Who was French by the way...

Now, I would like to explain my first posting here :

Originally posted by Ranger1

Huh? a couple that made a special trojan and sold it to firms in Israel and some firms in the UK (who know maybe US too),and its Israel government fault again?

You are talking about spying against countries in war times against israeli firms spy on eachother,two total different things.

Nope, sorry Ranger1, but that was not what I meant. I was talking about how the Israeli government did not have sufficient rules and regulations against industrial spying for decades let alone that they enforced them in a court of law. As long as it made Israel as a whole stronger everything was allowed. I fully admit that I am talking about the 70-ies and early 80-ies, I lost track after that time. It basically meant that industrial spying was condoned just as much as governmental spying. In those days the Mossad actually was into industrial spying.

And let me repeat myself before I am accused of anti-semitism : I do not condemn this as I do not know what I would have done in similar circumstances(three wars fought, constant threats from neighbours, etcetera). I am just stating the fact as they were then. Nuzzing more...

Cheers,

TM.

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Industrial Espionage û Myth or Everyday Problem

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