The Rampant, Irresponsible Religion Thread

[colonyearth]

But what if they be green??

I ain't easy being green....

"but in purple...I'm stunning!"



Come on, you all knew it was coming.

CE

[Jan]

I ain't easy being green....

Dear, we *never* said you were easy...or cheap!

[QUOTE]"but in purple...I'm stunning!"

Come on, you all knew it was coming.

Sheesh, took you long enough!



Jan

[colonyearth]

Dear, we *never* said you were easy...or cheap!

Easy? Always. Cheap? Never!

CE

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

So the new Pope is even more right wing than the previous one. And after all the accusations of complicity during the holocaust the cardinals have picked a former Hitler Youth member too. It's the 21st Century, they could have picked an African or South American pope, or a reformer with his eye on the future. Instead they chose an old ex-nazi who discribes homosexuals as 'morally disordered'. Hitler shuved 'those people' into ovens too.

[Radhil]

*goggles at the risen thread*

IT LIVES!!!!!

*ahem*

Don't buy into all the ex-Nazi crap. Every German kid in those times was "educated". Please see your standard B5 episodes dealing with propoganda and those on the "other side" of a heavy war against evil. Ratzinger was no different.

That said, I do think his actions during those times - namely, head down and mouth shut - are telling. Nor do I like this immediate rage against Spain schtick. It remains to be seen just how much help or harm he'll do.

[Dr Maturin]

So the new Pope is even more right wing than the previous one. And after all the accusations of complicity during the holocaust the cardinals have picked a former Hitler Youth member too. It's the 21st Century, they could have picked an African or South American pope, or a reformer with his eye on the future. Instead they chose an old ex-nazi who discribes homosexuals as 'morally disordered'. Hitler shuved 'those people' into ovens too.

I was unaware that membership in Hitler Youth was voluntary...

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

It was.

Membership of the Nazi Party was too.

Even so still holding to the stance of the most hated political group of the 20th Century, hardly makes one the ideal choice for the post. Especially when other candidates were available.

[Dr Maturin]

It was.

Membership of the Nazi Party was too.

Even so still holding to the stance of the most hated political group of the 20th Century, hardly makes one the ideal choice for the post. Especially when other candidates were available.

I'm not Catholic, so it won't ruin my breakfast.

[Jan]

It was.

Membership of the Nazi Party was too.

Even so still holding to the stance of the most hated political group of the 20th Century, hardly makes one the ideal choice for the post. Especially when other candidates were available.

How voluntary was it if you wanted to stay alive and your family make a living?

At any rate, I'll reserve judgment until he actually does something. Up to now he was acting on behalf of John Paul II. Not that it matters as I no longer pretend to be Catholic either.

Jan

[Radhil]

It was.

Membership of the Nazi Party was too.

Even so still holding to the stance of the most hated political group of the 20th Century, hardly makes one the ideal choice for the post. Especially when other candidates were available.

Hi! We're running a recruiting drive for this little brainwashing program we're trying out. It's completely voluntary, but if you don't see things our way, your name is put on a list and six months from now your entire family will be dragged off to concentration camps and die like animals. Sign here, please?

I'm sorry, did you think the Nazis got followers by being cuddly? Hitler gave out bunny rabbits to small children maybe?

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

It's simply not true that every German was or was forced to be a Nazi or join the Hitler Youth. Even many high ranking serving military officers were not party members. (admittedly mostly Prussians and Austrian. Haven't any of you seen The Sound Of Music? Did Julie Andrews spin herself silly on a mountain top for nothing?) Also many people left Germany in disgust during the early years, there was even a German resistance. True, non party members didn't recieve advancement. And some were victimised but making a stand for ones principles can often have a hefty price tag. Signing up for an organisation that encouraged children to rat in their parents and their friends is proactive collaberation not just keeping your head down for your families sake. My main point was with the Vatican's very dodgy war record and the other available candidates what on Earth were they thinking about when they chose the man? A man who in one of his earliest moves came out and encouraged Spainish Catholics to scupper a law equalising rights for a group the Third Reich put in concentration camps.

[Capt.Montoya]

ShrÚshhhh:

Did you even read my previous reply on the topic of homosexuals and the Catholic Church?
You are stating things as if the teachings of the Church were to have wanton discrimination against gays.

For context: The Catholic Church actually teaches that homosexuals should be respected and that being homosexual is not by itself a sin. To quote from the Catechism: "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
I do grant you that to imply that there is some "just discrimination" is illogical.
You can read the whole three paragraphs on homosexuality in the Catechism directly from the Vatican's website ( http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...3s2c2a6.htm#II scroll down from link position to 2357-2359).

Not explicit there, but something I've seen elsewhere is that the Catholic Church under John Paul II pronounced that some people have a natural homosexual tendency (hence the call for acceptance), I found a mention of that on the following link which also provides a broader context: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom.htm

BTW, the final text of the Catholic Catechism came from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which was led by.... Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

The Church still says that homosexuals can't marry (because from the standpoint of the Church marriage is an indissoluble sacrament between man and woman, not simply a joining of two people in love), and according to the Catechism they should be celibate (any sex that can't result in conception, even within a married couple, is a sin according to the Church).

I should mention that a religious marriage does not have to equal a civil union. A marriage before the State should be separate from a marriage before the Church.
In that respect I think that the debate over gay marriage is too much a matter of semantics.
What does it matter if the Catholic Church won't perform a religious ceremony for a same-sex couple if it's supposedly a matter of equal civil rights?

I personally have no objections to homosexual civil unions, and I have no problems if they want to make love, it's none of my business to say if that's a sin (and I'm a Catholic).

Which brings me to a different topic: that one thousand million people in the world say we are Catholics does not mean that we blindly obey and agree with everything that comes from the Vatican.
So when it comes to the supposed influence of the Pope maybe you worry too much for too little.

And for further context: Ratzinger deserted from the Army (he was drafted, he didn't join voluntarily), which goes to show that he wasn't exactly happy with defending Hitler. In this I'll grant you that he deserted by war's end when almost everyone did the same.

But you are wrong to say that joining the Hitler Youth was voluntary.
Here is more info from the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

In December of 1936, Hitler Youth membership stood at just over 5 million. That same month, the Hitler Youth became obligatory and membership was required by law (Gesetz ³ber die Hitlerjugend). This obligation was affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht. Membership could be enforced even against the will of the parents. From that point, most of Germany's teenagers were incorporated into the Hitler Youth, and by 1940, the total membership reached eight million. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the Hitler Youth.

Many of the "Hitler Youth Generation" were born in the 1920s and 30s and, as such, became the adult generation of Germany during the years of the Cold War in the 1960s and 70s. It was not uncommon, therefore, that many senior leaders of both West and East Germany had held membership in the Hitler Youth. Since the organization was compulsory after 1938, there was little effort to "black list" political figures who had once been members of the Hitler Youth, since it was considered that they had had no choice in the matter.

You could also read the biography of Benedict XVI at the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV

Because if you want to speak badly of someone without the full facts you may end up being the one looking bad...

Conflating the Catholic Church with Nazism is completely wrong.
If you have factual objections, not innuendo and misunderstandings, please state them.

[Dr Maturin]

All very good points, Monty. As an aside, Catholicism as it was practiced at various points throughout history was closer to communism than Nazism.

I feel like Shr'eshhhhhh is repeating the talking points of the MAINSTREAM LIBERAL MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT, while not looking into what the new pope is really all about. That's not to say that I like Benedict or the Church, because I disagree with a lot of what they propagate, but there is just this irrational fear of this new pope out there. Just like there was fear of The Passion of the Christ, and it was all for naught.

[Radhil]

I feel like Shr'eshhhhhh is repeating the talking points of the MAINSTREAM LIBERAL MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT, while not looking into what the new pope is really all about.

I laugh at the caps, truly I do.

TV News hasn't said boo about the guy really, least that I've seen. I've seen the Nazi thing mentioned but never gone into. The beating of the Nazi gong I've mostly seen in the "grassroots" liberals - the websites, the blogs, and the nutters populating therein that think they know better because they make a link a 6-year old could. Not my proudest moments to be visiting those sites either.

[Dr Maturin]

I laugh at the caps, truly I do.

That comes from the other forums that I frequent. It's a Star Wars thing (EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE). We also do it for RIGHT-WING RADIO and such.

TV News hasn't said boo about the guy really, least that I've seen. I've seen the Nazi thing mentioned but never gone into. The beating of the Nazi gong I've mostly seen in the "grassroots" liberals - the websites, the blogs, and the nutters populating therein that think they know better because they make a link a 6-year old could. Not my proudest moments to be visiting those sites either.

FNC has had tons of pundits on talking about how Ratz getting elected is bad, it will cause a regression in the Church, etc.