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  • #31
    Jesus Vs Old Testament is a change of a subject on a change of a subject.
    It's also a direct attack and refutement on the quotes you stated.

    If you can't respond to that, just say so.
    Last edited by Radhil; 04-04-2005, 08:20 PM.
    Radhil Trebors
    Persona Under Construction

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    • #32
      Guys, did any of you bothered to read my post? Here I'll put a link:
      http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans1.htm
      Read 26 and 27. Those are in the "New Testament" and are against homosexuality.

      And the protestant bible is different from the one catholics and orthodoxs are using.
      http://boe.resources.org.au/default....16&track=14596
      http://www.memoware.com/temp/200545_...n_re_-Text.txt


      Or for that matter search with google the words: "Catholic Bible is different" and see what you can find.

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      • #33
        Redrake -- Paul isn't God. Nor were the crusty old desert wanders of Old Testament times who came up with Deut' and Lev'. Quoting them doesn't support your assertion that God disapproves of homosexuality. It merely reminds us what we already know -- that almost all established Christian churches are either based on vile homophobic rant or are hypocrytical. These rules were merely introduced to distance Judaism from other desert religions like Ishtarism, (who practised such acts as head shaving, having sex with statues etc) It also refers to laying with a man as a woman. Jewish men used to pray to God and thank him for not making him a woman. Like the Athenian Greeks (who saw the love of one man for another as the highest form of love) Old testament Jews saw women almost as a different and inferior species to men. For a man to have anal sex with another man was seen as treating him as a woman therefore sinful, as was letting him dress in womens clothes or do the housework. Interestingly the Old testement doesn't mention lesbianism at all. Paul does speak out against Lesbians but he doesn't approve of sex (well at least enjoying it) anyway.

        You don't have to believe in Paul's teachings to believe in Christ's. You don't have to believe in the Bible (or any so called sacred or holy text) to believe in God. Religion and faith are NOT the same.
        I have the wings for Bingo.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
          You don't have to believe in the Bible (or any so called sacred or holy text) to believe in God. Religion and faith are NOT the same.
          And you don't have to be religious to be understand spirituality.

          Jan
          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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          • #35
            My point was to combat those statements that usually gays and lesbians make, that bible isn't against homosexuality. I also don't have anything against gays or lesbians, but I don't agree with their marriage, at least a religious one.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Redrake
              My point was to combat those statements that usually gays and lesbians make, that bible isn't against homosexuality. I also don't have anything against gays or lesbians, but I don't agree with their marriage, at least a religious one.
              Then it would seem that you do have something against them if you won't allow that they're worthy of the same rights and priviliges straights have. One question nobody against it has ever been able to answer for me: What possible harm could gay marriage do to anything?

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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              • #37
                I said I'm not against the civic mariage, but I am against religious marriage, because religious marriage is made for a man and a woman. And why do they want to marry in a church? Do they think that this way God will agree with their marriage?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Redrake
                  I said I'm not against the civic mariage, but I am against religious marriage, because religious marriage is made for a man and a woman.
                  (playing devil's advocate a little, but I am interested in the answers) Why? All religions or just yours? Again, what possible harm can it do?

                  And why do they want to marry in a church? Do they think that this way God will agree with their marriage?
                  Why shouldn't they? Is their devotion to God any less valid than straights? Why would *you* want to marry in a church. Whatever those reasons are, they're probably the same as any g/l/b etc.

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                  • #39
                    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the church hasn't cornered the market on marriages. In Gatlinburg TN, Pigeon Forge TN, and Las Vegas NV (just to give three examples), there are numerous wedding chapels created solely for the purpose of quick and inexpensive marriages. Marriages can also be administered in city hall by a justice of the peace, usually a judge.

                    With the First Amendment, the Government cannot tell churches (not just the christian ones, but any house of worship for any religion) what to believe. It's called the free-exercise clause. So if a church decides not to administer gay marriages, the American government cannot tell that church to do so. Now, if the church decides to administer gay weddings, then they have no grounds to complain about it.
                    RIP Coach Larry Finch
                    Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                    Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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                    • #40
                      Just to be clear, Redrake, but as far as I know, no one has ever actually taken something like this to the church and asked it to perform a gay marraige. Catholic marriage has never been a problem, because the church has made itself very clear that it wants nothing to do with homosexuals, and by and large the reverse is now also true.

                      Don't muddy the waters. Jan's right on target here - this is about what is moral about homosexuality, and why you think the way you do, not about the specifics of one issue of the day.
                      Radhil Trebors
                      Persona Under Construction

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                      • #41
                        Redrake, I visited those 2 links you provided about the "differences" between the Catholic and Protestant bibles. One worked. Excluding the new testament books, the sole difference is that the catholics use the septuagint version, and the protestants the hebrew. Aside from the extra books in the old testament, both are virtually the same. I've read both, not in the original languages, but in English versions provided. I grew up with religious parents, so it's in my background. As an adult, I grew out of it.

                        I've worked with a gay person at one of my previous jobs. It never crossed my mind at all, since that has nothing to do with busting your hump every day at work. It only came up in a conversation on our lunch break. Funny how conversations flow naturally. Anyway, he said "Don't worry. You're not my type." I was confused as to what my reaction should have been. A sigh of relief or feel like I've been rejected.
                        Last edited by David Panzer; 04-05-2005, 07:17 AM.
                        RIP Coach Larry Finch
                        Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                        Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Radhil
                          Don't muddy the waters. Jan's right on target here - this is about what is moral about homosexuality, and why you think the way you do, not about the specifics of one issue of the day.
                          Muddy the waters? What defines a person's morality better then his/her religion/spirituality? This entire discussion is headed to a major flameout. This thread seems to be divided into the Christians and non-Christians as usual for this type of conversation. Our viewpoints are very different from one another, and imo, the only thing we can agree on is to disagree.
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ariake
                            Muddy the waters? What defines a person's morality better then his/her religion/spirituality? This entire discussion is headed to a major flameout. This thread seems to be divided into the Christians and non-Christians as usual for this type of conversation. Our viewpoints are very different from one another, and imo, the only thing we can agree on is to disagree.
                            Nay nay nay... it may be divided, but the whole point of the disagreement is to understand it. Otherwise we might as well not have the thread (or any other thread for that matter) and just mutter to ourselves at our keyboards.

                            Mebbe better translation: I don't want to disrespect Redrake here. I do want to pick apart his view though. See how it works. Suggest an improvement, or maybe learn one. If that's a process that makes people heated... well, there's not much help for that.

                            As for what defines a person better than their religion... A religion is just a brand name for what a person thinks. A label, a word. I'm not interested in labels. I'm interested in what's underneath 'em. That's a far better definition in my book than "Christian" or "Jewish" or "Atheist".

                            The topic is homosexuality, which was kinda slipped into after the pope discussion. People don't like it. My question is why? And I'll learn a lot more about you guys, and maybe you'll pick up a thing or two, if I ask that rather than go "Oh, right, he's just Catholic, and the bible says so".
                            Radhil Trebors
                            Persona Under Construction

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                            • #44
                              Actually, I'm sincerely interested in why people feel and think the way they do, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. I've found that thinking something through in order to explain it in writing tends to bring things into better focus for me.

                              Anyway, my favorite question is "Why?" To heck with "What do you want" and the rest.

                              Jan
                              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                              • #45
                                Jan, as someone who grew up with parents who attended church, with regard to homosexuality, I'm not sure. I don't know if 2,000 years ago there was an Elton John or a Liberace. The Greeks did have great plays, so maybe they just didn't like the dramatic arts.
                                RIP Coach Larry Finch
                                Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                                Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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