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  • Whitewashed
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    They follow a twisted religion which says in it's 'holy' books it's not just right but essential that homosexuals be stoned to death.
    Actually the stoning of people part is one of the things that Jesus canceled. He said "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." (her = a woman who had commited adultery). Today's rule is the golden rule and the judging of other people is to be left to God alone.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    The only homosexuals who need the 'pity' of Christians are so called Christian homosexuals. (why any homosexual would want to be in a homophobic religion boggles the mind)

    They follow a twisted religion which says in it's 'holy' books it's not just right but essential that homosexuals be stoned to death.

    One can follow and believe in the teachings of Jesus without following the dogma of long dead bigotted old men who in the name of God claimed the right to murder or have murdered thousands. Just look at the murders of West Indian homosexual men that are regularly carried out by church going Christians in the name of religion.

    Ultimately what consenting adults get upto in their own home is no ones buisness but their own.

    When religion and the law interfere, the road to the kind of atrocities that history has shown us is destined to be trod again.
    ::clap...clap...clap...clap::

    Anyways...let me single out this little gem:

    (why any homosexual would want to be in a homophobic religion boggles the mind)
    Conversely, why would any Christian want to be associated with Christophobes? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but I thought that presenting the inverse of your unwitting boff would display its erroneousness.

    In case you haven't checked, on THIS side of the pond, certain denominations of Christianity have homosexual ministers and more and more churches are admitting gays into their congregations. Hell, one of the gay guys at the office (who, incidentally, just turned forty yesterday) is a big Christian and goes to church every Sunday. Then again, I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. The point is that your statement was grossly misguided. Christianity is NOT "homophobic."

    Speaking of that term...I hate it. Technically, it describes someone who fears others who are like him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Whitewashed
    replied
    Jan, we have indeed a quite different concept of God. Before I became a Christian I also believed in a creator that has no contact or relationship with his/her creation so your view isn't entirely unfamiliar for me. Now I have however found that there is indeed a God that cares about us and wants a relationship with us. I don't claim to understand all the mysteries of the creation or the spiritual world as we're really talking about powers that are vastly superiour than us. All I know is that there is someone out there that hears my prayers and gives me guidance.

    I have accepted the authority of the Bible, mainly the new testament and the teachings of Jesus as I have found much truth in them, but also the parts regarding who God is, who we are, where we are coming from, why we are here and where we are going (some familiar questions here, haha). I don't know for sure why God chose to create us, the only possibility that my mind is able to comprehend is that God for whatever reason wanted company, someone to teach and to love and to communicate with. Not unlike humans wanting children of their own. In the beginning the world was very different, there was no sin, humans lived in paradise together with God with open communication, peace and harmony. When the humans fell to the temptation of the snake, that all changed. The world after that was something God never intended, the humans became sinful and God had to send them away. This is the part that really sucks for us, we are unwillingly born into a world where by the end of life we are punished (for things that we ultimately aren't to blame for) by an eternity in hell unless we find our way back to God. God has since then spent his efforts to try to correct the mistake and get us back on track by sacrificing Jesus. That sacrifice may sound like a horrible thing, but you should remember that Jesus rose from the dead. He was free from sin so hell couldn't hold him. So the sacrifice wasn't permanent, but the physical and mental suffering and the weight of carrying our sins that Jesus had to endure here on earth was still no small thing.

    The main difference in our beliefs is that for me this life is just a prequel to the true life that comes after this one while for you this life is apparently all we've got. In the light of that it's understandable how different our views of sin is, because the sin the Bible speaks of has much greater spiritual effects than merely physical effects on the world we're living in. Now the rules of this spiritual world, such as why God is holy, holy is opposite of sin, why sin requires blood sacrifice, what happens when we die, I can't ever imagine to truly understand, but I choose to believe in the Bible because it does seem logical to me. There is a spiritual power in blood that is invisible to the physical world. When looking at things through the Christian view of life and afterlife the problems of sin, morals and ethics do become much more complex. For a Christian death is not an end, it's a beginning. Actually I wouldn't mind just ceasing to exist entirely, but the afterlife is supposed to be so much better than this one and so different that we can't possibly understand it before we're there. Things like time and space and suffering won't exist anymore.

    About the following and worshipping part, it ties together with the relationship thing. I believe God as my creator knows me best and what I need, so I choose to try to follow Him. I can not say I have always succeeded, but I will keep trying and asking for guidance. I believe we can understand the will of God to some extent. Once again the will of God is pretty much stated in the Bible. The problem is that you can't take every small sentence the Bible says as a strict command but need to know the context, both inside the scriptures as well as the time it was written and the intention behind it. That's why some things Paul wrote as guidelines to the early churches no longer are considered valid. I do believe I am getting in a little over my head here as there are things with the Bible aren't entirely clear for me yet. I just believe in its authority and trust elder Christians that have more experience in the matter as well as that our spirit will help guide us when we read the Bible.

    Worshipping I see as a part of the relationship. God is good and He deservers our worship. There is a great power in worshipping and through it spiritual barriers can be removed. There are many examples in the Bible where great things have happened through prayer and worship. I think worship however is mostly an attitude of the heart and a part of prayer and Bible reading that together form the relationship with God. You said "Why would the creator have such a primitive need as to require the worship of the created ones?". I wouldn't necessarily call it a primitive need. Unless you consider a parent wanting to have a relationship with their child primitive as well. According to the Bible we are created in God's image. I'd say our ability to love and our desire to have contact with our children (and parents), not to mention our sense of humor, are features directly inherited from God.

    There might have been gay rituals in the Catholic church during history, I really wouldn't know. I don't think the "homosexuality is a sin" issue is just a fashion though because it's so clear in the Bible. I think the issue has just gotten out more in the open lately with the homosexual people becoming more visible in socity and open discussions about gay marriage and the likes. The reason why Christians oppose gay marriage is that the marriage is one of the biggest things in Christianity. The marriage is seen as a direct symbol of the bond between humans and God, and God set it out to be a lifelong bond between a man and a woman. By recognizing the gay marriage as an equal
    to the standard marriage would be changing the original rules that God set up for the marriage.

    The fact that it was wrong to think of the world as anything else than flat was once again someone's bright idea without any Biblical basis that turned into a law. We have to remember when discussing the church history that the state church became a huge political and economical power and was largely ruled by greedy men serving only their own benefits while the people with actual Christian faith remained in the background.

    I'm sorry if I have been stating many obvious things that you already know about the Christian faith, but it's hard for me to know how much you're already familiar with. Perhaps it's just good for me that I write these things as it makes me have to think through all this again and try to structurize it. There's only so much that you can reason about these things though as in the end it always comes down to ones personal faith.
    Last edited by Whitewashed; 07-09-2006, 06:21 AM.

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  • Der Mike
    replied
    Originally posted by Shr'eshhhhhh
    The only homosexuals who need the 'pity' of Christians are so called Christian homosexuals. (why any homosexual would want to be in a homophobic religion boggles the mind)

    They follow a twisted religion which says in it's 'holy' books it's not just right but essential that homosexuals be stoned to death.
    Actually, Christianity teaches to hate the act but love the sinner. But feel free to smear Christianity more if you wish.
    -=Mike

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  • Karachi Vyce
    replied
    The only homosexuals who need the 'pity' of Christians are so called Christian homosexuals. (why any homosexual would want to be in a homophobic religion boggles the mind)

    They follow a twisted religion which says in it's 'holy' books it's not just right but essential that homosexuals be stoned to death.
    Oh dear lord.

    So very, very, VERY wrong and insulting.

    Hey ZHD, I've half a mind to get Marney to come here and address him about this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Whitewashed
    Hi,
    First of all I would like to apologize for bringing up a topic that is very old, but Jan raised a question back on page 4 that I find is one of the most interesting ones regarding this topic and it was never really discussed, so I would like to comment on it.
    Hi Whitewhashed. Thanks for the thoughtful post. Since it stems from my definition of sin...and since I have so completely different a concept of God from what you seem to...and since I'm feeling sort of thoughtful today, I thought I'd address some of your points. Anything I snip is simply for the sake of brevity or because I'm not addressing that part, not an attempt to remove context or any disrespect, okay? Also, since my concept of God is very different, I'm going to use the terms goddess or creator, just to make sure that there's no comparison to the more usual concepts of god, okay?

    I totally agree with what Shr'eshhhhhh said earlier "Religion and faith are NOT the same.". Religion is something created by people tied to history, tradition, laws and rules made up long ago. People choose to follow a religion because they believe it will save them and get them to paradise when they die. I don't believe in religions, I believe in a living God. The only way to salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour and through that have a personal relationship with God. The way you serve God, live your life, think and speak are not as important as they don't bring salvation.
    I don't believe that my goddess wants me to have a relationship with hir or she'd've made her personality known. I don't believe that any salvation is in any hands but mine. My goddess has created galaxies and universes and atoms and quarks that abide by the most beautiful and complex laws both macro and micro which tells me that she has a wider and more complex view than I could ever understand. And I'm fine with that. The way I see it, my responsibility is to do the very best I can to become the finest creation I can be to honor that but that she has no need or interest in any 'worship' I might do. I don't think that it's possible for the created to have any kind of relationship with the creator, any more than a paramecium can have a relationship with me.

    Now, about the sin issue; I have during my life learned that the definition of sin is simply "missing the goal", the goal here being God's will for our lives. The Bible states that all sin is equal, there are no worse sins and less worse sins although there are morally worse and better deeds, but as I said sin is not just tied to simply morals and ethics. Thus, fornication is just as much a sin as murder. A sinful thought is just as much a sin as commiting the sin. A sinful thought doesn't harm anyone but the one thinking the thought. Sin always harms the sinner but not always any potential outside victim of the deed. We are all sinners and we are all always going to be sinners here on earth no matter how hard we try. So if you're trying to acheive salvation by not sinning you might as well stop as it's not possible. Salvation is a gift and it has nothing to do with your deeds, it's just about if you accept Christ or not. I'm not in any way questioning good deeds, but a lot of people confuse them to be a matter of salvation when they're actually not.
    I disagree with this on every point starting with the concept of 'salvation'. I don't have any belief in an afterlife per se, such as Heaven, Hell or Limbo. What I believe is that, if there *is* a purpose for our being here, it's to learn, to grow and to become all that we can be. I'm not completely attached to the idea, but I am attracted to the idea of a form of reincarnation whereby the 'me-ness' (soul, if you will) would continue in future lives to learn and grow and that perhaps that growth might evolve into higher order beings. I admit to realizing that part of the attraction of this idea is that I just *hate* the idea of how some lives I've known seem wasted and unhappy even though the people were good people at the core, and that I hope that there was a lesson to be learned and that that soul will continue.

    As for sin, I stand by my definition of harm being involved in order for it to qualify, though I don't insist that that harm be physical. We can harm ourselves by our thoughts but not in the way that Whitewashed mentioned, imo. We're learning, we're growing, and if the goddess were to interest herself in the ocassional impure thought, she'd've given us up as a bad idea thousands of years ago. No, the thoughts I think are sinful are more along the lines of the ones that hold us back, that make us feel incapable or unworthy when that's not the case. But that's a sin against one's self.

    The term sin includes so much that it is impossible to walk through life without commiting a sin. It requires perfection and we are all flawed human beings. The fact that you can not stop being a sinner doesn't however mean that you shouldn't strive to become free of sin. Once again I return to the definition of sin; failing to do God's will in every area of our lives. To truly understand sin you need to understand God. This probably sounds completely crazy and strange to people who don't believe in God, but for you to understand where people fighting against sins you don't see as harmful for anyone are coming from, you need to know this. God is holy, holy is the opposite of sin. God created humans in His image and loves every single one, but God can not exist together with sin. Just as light and darkness can not be in the same spot. God has absolutely no way to get through to a sinful person as long as the person is sinful. Sure, God is God, our creator and He could easily program every human to stop sinning. But God doesn't want mindless robots, he has given us free will and included in that is the choice to live a life completely cut off from God, even if the person doesn't acknowledge it.
    Again, I can't think of any point here that I don't disagree with. The main point of disagreement is that I don't see any way that we can *possibly* know what the goddess wants of us. Nor can we know why she created all that she did. I catagorically reject that *any* so-called holy book is the word or will of the creator. As for sin making it impossible for God to do something, my goddess has no such artificial limitations.

    [quote]So now that we know what sin is, that we're all sinful and that it means that we can not get through to God and He can't get through to us, how do you get around that? Is there anyway to get rid of commited sin? Sin can only be accounted for by blood sacrifice. During the times of the Old Testament people were sacrificing animals to attone for their sins. That was the only way to get rid of commited sins. [/qutoe]

    Why? The whole blood sacrifice thing has always puzzled me. I mean, how barbaric can you get?! C'mon, do you really expect me to believe that a creator who can create novas would give a fig for a blood sacrifice of some poor, dumb animal?? Sorry, IMO the whole blood sacrifice thing comes from the shamans wanting the best cuts of meat.

    The next part you've all probably heard or read before: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16, the foundation of Christianity. Jesus' sacrifice removed the need for sacrificing animals. It payed the price of all human sin ever commited and to be commited. If you acknowledge that, all you need to do is aks and you will be forgiven, you will be clean and you can get through to God and He can get through to you.
    Sorry, again the only reaction I have to this is that it's utter barbarism and that, since we *can't* know of the motives of needs of the creator, that sacrifice thing is a creation man. And a rather disturbing one, at that.

    And the 'sacrificing your son thing' makes me gag, personally. I objected violently when god supposedly required Abraham to kill his own son (as a test of all things-can we get any crueller?) and the idea of *the* god setting up his own son to be tortured and killed is abhorrent.

    God created us and we should follow Him, but he also gave us a free will, a brain to think with and a conscience to guide us. Sadly a lot of people, Christians or not, use the first one without using the other two.
    That's another part I don't get, the following and worshipping. Why would the creator have such a primitive need as to require the worship of the created ones? Most of the time when I ask this question I get the standard 'we can't know the thoughts of god' except that I never ask the question until somebody's just told me what they thing god wants. You can't have it both ways, can you?

    As for the homosexual 'issue', fashions of what's considered right and wrong change constantly. And make no mistake, they are fashions, not written in stone. The Catholic church reportedly once had a ritual for joining smae-sex couples, the earth used to be considered flat and good people were deemed heretics for not agreeing, many other examples. One more reason why the definition of 'sin' needs to be a very simple one.

    Jan

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  • Shr'eshhhhhh
    replied
    The only homosexuals who need the 'pity' of Christians are so called Christian homosexuals. (why any homosexual would want to be in a homophobic religion boggles the mind)

    They follow a twisted religion which says in it's 'holy' books it's not just right but essential that homosexuals be stoned to death.

    One can follow and believe in the teachings of Jesus without following the dogma of long dead bigotted old men who in the name of God claimed the right to murder or have murdered thousands. Just look at the murders of West Indian homosexual men that are regularly carried out by church going Christians in the name of religion.

    Ultimately what consenting adults get upto in their own home is no ones buisness but their own.

    When religion and the law interfere, the road to the kind of atrocities that history has shown us is destined to be trod again.
    Last edited by Shr'eshhhhhh; 07-08-2006, 08:02 AM.

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  • Whitewashed
    replied
    About sin and how it relates to the topic

    Hi,
    First of all I would like to apologize for bringing up a topic that is very old, but Jan raised a question back on page 4 that I find is one of the most interesting ones regarding this topic and it was never really discussed, so I would like to comment on it.

    Originally posted by Jan
    Just to throw a question out to the group...(I warned you about my favorite question..<g>)

    Why should anything that does not do any harm to anybody be considered a sin? That's assuming that you believe it is, of course.

    My answer: It shouldn't...ever. In my book, the only sin is to deliberately harm another unnecessarily. Now, granted, I'm still a little fuzzy on some details, like where cruelty to animals would fall (though I do think that's wrong) but for me the key words would be 'deliberate' and 'unnecessarily'.

    Does anybody have any other definitions of sin besides this one and 'Because I believe what my religion has defined it as.'?
    I have never been a religious person, still wouldn't define myself as one, but I have been a Christian for about 6 and a half years now. I totally agree with what Shr'eshhhhhh said earlier "Religion and faith are NOT the same.". Religion is something created by people tied to history, tradition, laws and rules made up long ago. People choose to follow a religion because they believe it will save them and get them to paradise when they die. I don't believe in religions, I believe in a living God. The only way to salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour and through that have a personal relationship with God. The way you serve God, live your life, think and speak are not as important as they don't bring salvation. I believe that no matter the denomination all Christians are the same and in all denominations there are people with true faith and people only serving the religion, not seeing the big picture. But it's not my position (or anyone else's) to judge another persons faith. We're only accountable for ourselves and our own life and even a person that doesn't appear very godly, Christian, harmonic, humble, enlighted (whatever generalisation you want to use for one with faith) can actually be on the right track with God. This was just some background to show where I'm coming from.

    Now, about the sin issue; I have during my life learned that the definition of sin is simply "missing the goal", the goal here being God's will for our lives. The Bible states that all sin is equal, there are no worse sins and less worse sins although there are morally worse and better deeds, but as I said sin is not just tied to simply morals and ethics. Thus, fornication is just as much a sin as murder. A sinful thought is just as much a sin as commiting the sin. A sinful thought doesn't harm anyone but the one thinking the thought. Sin always harms the sinner but not always any potential outside victim of the deed. We are all sinners and we are all always going to be sinners here on earth no matter how hard we try. So if you're trying to acheive salvation by not sinning you might as well stop as it's not possible. Salvation is a gift and it has nothing to do with your deeds, it's just about if you accept Christ or not. I'm not in any way questioning good deeds, but a lot of people confuse them to be a matter of salvation when they're actually not.

    Non-Christians usually think of sin only as something that is harmful for other people, the earth or perhaps a greater good, but there are in fact much more sins than just that. As I said a sinful thought is just as much a sin as a sinful deed. Coveting someone else's property or wife for instance. The term sin includes so much that it is impossible to walk through life without commiting a sin. It requires perfection and we are all flawed human beings. The fact that you can not stop being a sinner doesn't however mean that you shouldn't strive to become free of sin. Once again I return to the definition of sin; failing to do God's will in every area of our lives. To truly understand sin you need to understand God. This probably sounds completely crazy and strange to people who don't believe in God, but for you to understand where people fighting against sins you don't see as harmful for anyone are coming from, you need to know this. God is holy, holy is the opposite of sin. God created humans in His image and loves every single one, but God can not exist together with sin. Just as light and darkness can not be in the same spot. God has absolutely no way to get through to a sinful person as long as the person is sinful. Sure, God is God, our creator and He could easily program every human to stop sinning. But God doesn't want mindless robots, he has given us free will and included in that is the choice to live a life completely cut off from God, even if the person doesn't acknowledge it.

    So now that we know what sin is, that we're all sinful and that it means that we can not get through to God and He can't get through to us, how do you get around that? Is there anyway to get rid of commited sin? Sin can only be accounted for by blood sacrifice. During the times of the Old Testament people were sacrificing animals to attone for their sins. That was the only way to get rid of commited sins. The next part you've all probably heard or read before: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16, the foundation of Christianity. Jesus' sacrifice removed the need for sacrificing animals. It payed the price of all human sin ever commited and to be commited. If you acknowledge that, all you need to do is aks and you will be forgiven, you will be clean and you can get through to God and He can get through to you. Once again this doesn't mean that sin no longer matters. Sin still hurts the relationship between a human and God, sin always hurts the sinner, God and sometimes also other people. Although we can not get rid of all sin, we can get rid of a lot of sin and get closer to the goal. A completely sinful life is possible once we've passed away and have left our physical body behind.

    Finally, to tie the discussion about sin to the larger discussion about the Pope, religion, condemning homosexuals and crazy rules religious people follow. Although some people apply higher standards to Christians, thinking of them as better people overall this is not really the case. Christians are still just as flawed as any other humans. One of the easiest and most harmful mistake a Christian can make is confuse personal preference and opinion with the will of God. And just as easily a person can claim to be a Christian and acting under divine intervention while in reality only serving their own benefit. We see these things in a history of which hunts, crusades, holy wars and also things such as the Pope's stance against contraception, Catholic priests not being allowed to marry, the Church selling blessings for money, Christians calling certain styles of music such as metal evil and sinful, the list could go on forever. Now there are still for most people crazy sounding things that actually are sins and should be fought and then there are things as I just listed that have absolutely nothing to do with God's will. There is nothing in the Bible that talks against contraception, priest marriage, The Bible doesn't even say that there will be one man on earth called the Pope and that God will speak only through him, that's not true. The Bible does however confirm that fornication, abortion and active homosexuality are sins. Why? Because God manifested the marriage between a man and a woman as the ground for sexual activity. That is his will. However a lot of extremists miss the point that we are to hate the sin, not the sinner. Lashing out and condemning homosexuals or people having pre-marital sex is just as sinful as the sins they are commiting.

    I have nothing against gay people, I only feel sorry for them for having such a difficult sin that they will have to live with. Now if they don't mind it and choose to live without God they are entitled to that decision and no one has the right to try to force them to do otherwise. Christians can teach and guide people regarding sin, but faith is always a matter of personal choice and trying to force it upon someone does more harm than good. Same with the speaking out against contraception. Even if it really would be a sin to use contraception what good does it make to take a stance against it if the people you're reaching are already living in fornication? As has been noted here many times it only makes the problem worse, helps spreading AIDS and causes unwanted pregnancies and through that also more abortions. Now if the Pope would truly be "the voice of God" he would never do something like that because God would never want that. God created us and we should follow Him, but he also gave us a free will, a brain to think with and a conscience to guide us. Sadly a lot of people, Christians or not, use the first one without using the other two.
    Last edited by Whitewashed; 07-08-2006, 05:42 AM.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    I have GOT to get an interview with those guys.

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  • Karachi Vyce
    replied
    My brother, who's something of a minor motorcycle aficionado, took his Harley out yesterday and joined that group of bike enthusiasts who show up to funerals and drown out the protestors. I'm not sure if they ran into any of these religious assholes, but still. I'm proud of him regardless.

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  • rallytbk
    replied
    Originally posted by Manwithnoname
    This is for those coming in late or haven't read all the previous posts regarding this matter.

    I don't advocate the military families use violence against the church group:
    1) Assault charges,
    2) felons don't get to vote, which many people take for granted anyway, and
    3) their loved ones died for freedom -- that includes freedom of speech; it would taint those who died to ensure freedom.
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    In some states you're not even allowed to protect yourself.
    One of the things that I have always wondered about is ôwhat ever happened to protecting your personal space?ö I mean, when is shouting, menacing and threats of violence enough to protect yourself and your family? Stalking, harassing and just plain annoyance is not enough to open a can of can of whoopass? Does there has to be physical contacts to lay a beating on someone or are Americans going to have to put up with this Sh*t b/c of prosecution. I just don't know, things have got to change... For better or worst.

    Marine's Father Sues Funeral Protesters
    http://jmsnews.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=313

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    About a minute before the time on my post.

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  • Karachi Vyce
    replied
    When was this?

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Whoa, Julie Banderas WENT OFF on that kook cunt from the "Semper Fi Fags" group! I have never seen Julie so emotional before.

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  • manwithnoname
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    He will show his anger in the end.
    Anger and hate are two different things. Pat Robertson and his followers hate. Hate is an altogether different beast (pun intended). I can be angry at someone but not hate them.


    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    And I was kind of bummed that Teddy's plane didn't crash.
    Teddy Bear who?
    Last edited by manwithnoname; 06-07-2006, 11:40 PM.

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