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  • I am moderate, so the rest of you must be pretty leftist.

    And remember, TM, John Kerry would be considered a far right kind of guy in Europe.
    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jan
      Iwonder. As time has passed, I've noticed that news coverage seems to follow...fads, for want of a better word. Right now it's religious violence, group violence. A couple of years ago it was the homeless. Call me cynical but I don't believe that anything's changed, just the focus is on that particular news item.
      Anti-American?
      http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/14697552.htm

      You maybe rightà
      "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Addendu : I almost forget. In the Netherlands there are researchpapers about this, and they indeed conclude that there is more group-violence nowadays. Mainly because of the immigrant groups who - apparently - have a greater percentage of people who just won't behave. It is the subject of one of the fiercest debates in politics over here in a long long time.
        "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Towelmaster
          Addendu : I almost forget. In the Netherlands there are researchpapers about this, and they indeed conclude that there is more group-violence nowadays. Mainly because of the immigrant groups who - apparently - have a greater percentage of people who just won't behave. It is the subject of one of the fiercest debates in politics over here in a long long time.
          Funny, though, how it happens in France and Holland, but not here. You see more WHITE Americans behaving violently than Arab or Asian Muslims. And the Hispanic protests were very mild and peaceful.
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            Funny, though, how it happens in France and Holland, but not here. You see more WHITE Americans behaving violently than Arab or Asian Muslims. And the Hispanic protests were very mild and peaceful.
            First of all, I think that it happens in a lot more countries. The Netherlands are somewhat of a forward country when it comes to these kind of problems. Perhaps the focus is on Holland now, but it will be on other countries later. A lot of them - I heard - are actually watching Holland to see how we will solve the problems(or not of course).

            The historical background between the U.S. and the Netherlands is not comparable. Here they were asked as temporary 'guest-workers' who would return afterwards. Of course they didn't. The Netherlands now has about 14 % of non-western immigrants. By comparison(and only by comparison!) they commit more crimes that the indigeneous(at least fourth generation) population. It obviously has to do with the integration of these people, the dutch can and should be blamed for that just as well.

            Also, the problem is emphasized because this immigrant-population mainly lives in the big cities. And their problems are always magnified by the media. Just like Washington DC gets more publicity than Podunk...

            And finally: this is a very small and densely populated country. It always was, that's why we drained parts of the North Sea. Population-problems are therefor very quickly a really big problem.


            In France there is a real economical underclass of immigrants. But they have been French from the start. All citizens of the former north-african colonies are automatically considered to be French. The problem is that these people won't be hired by a lot of employers, so ghetto's have formed around the big cities. The Banlieus, perhaps you read about them. The countries in Europe may seem to have the same problems with immigrants but under the surface each country's problems were caused by different circumstances.
            That's one of the reasons it is so difficult to formulate a joint European policy.

            Then again, I could be talking out of my *rs about the french. Never been there.
            "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Towelmaster
              Addendu : I almost forget. In the Netherlands there are researchpapers about this, and they indeed conclude that there is more group-violence nowadays. Mainly because of the immigrant groups who - apparently - have a greater percentage of people who just won't behave. It is the subject of one of the fiercest debates in politics over here in a long long time.
              So the next step is to find out their definitions and evaluate them for yourself. I was recently in a discussion where somebody claimed that female-to-male domestic violence was equivalent to male-to-female domestic violence. It was reasonably convincing until you discovered that they were counting things like slammed doors as an incident of violence rather than actual slaps, etc. Groups rating violent TV shows have used the same tactics. Have I mentioned lies, damned lies....

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

              Comment


              • Do you do that while thinking 'it's not true' or while thinking 'it must be true'?
                "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Towelmaster
                  Do you do that while thinking 'it's not true' or while thinking 'it must be true'?
                  <Kosh> Yes. </Kosh>
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                  Comment


                  • Are you trying to stop this thread?
                    "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jan
                      Sigh...I have to grant you that. I simply don't comprehend the Islam way where one's entire life is completely wrapped around the religion. But then, no god I'd be interested in worshipping (which I'm not anyway but you get what I mean) could be 'humiliated' by little drawings. I mean, c'mon...the entity/being who created solar systems and galaxies and atoms worried about a cartoon?

                      Having watch what happens I suspect that the "humiliation" by the cartoons was nothing more than a power play. It was an excuse to gain power and influence. Misusing people's politeness in this way can backfire if they twig and attack next time.
                      Andrew Swallow

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                        I am moderate, so the rest of you must be pretty leftist.

                        And remember, TM, John Kerry would be considered a far right kind of guy in Europe.
                        I consider myself a classical liberal who was born 3 or 4 centuries too late.

                        Classical liberal being created in the 17th-18th century, and includes such people as Hobbes, Paine, Adam Smith, Voltaire and many others.
                        RIP Coach Larry Finch
                        Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                        Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

                        Comment


                        • Originally Posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                          I am moderate, so the rest of you must be pretty leftist.

                          And remember, TM, John Kerry would be considered a far right kind of guy in Europe.

                          Sorry, I missed that one. I don't consider moderate in American to be the same as moderate in Europe because obviously it isn't. I would probably be a democrat in the U.S.

                          John Kerry would be middle of the road here, slightly leftist but not much. And not way as much to the left as Gore is would be. But Kerry would definitely not be a far-right kind of guy. Our far-right wants all foreigners out, or at least no more of them in. They have no objection against more surveillance by the state, etcetera. Sounds more like the current Republican Americans to me to me!
                          Last edited by Towelmaster; 05-31-2006, 04:27 PM.
                          "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jan
                            Vyce could probably give a bette opinion on this but no, as far as I know, once a law is passed, it has to be specifically repealed *unless*, like the PATRIOT bill, it has a built-in expiration date at the time of passing.
                            More or less. Most statutes are meant to either be perpetual or they have some sort of sunset provision written into it, which makes the law no longer relevant (it "expires") at a certain point in time. Sometimes it could mean the expiration of the whole bill, sometimes it's just certain portions of it. If there are no sunset provisions than you'd need to repeal or amend the law in order to do away with it or change it.

                            I think he was talking about emergency legislation, and cities do often have those. Washington D.C. does it. I used to work, briefly, for the D.C. Council (the District's city council for those who aren't familiar with it), and they'd pass emergency legislation all the time. The protocol there is usually to pass an emergency bill, which usually only last for a small amount of time (30 days, 60 days, something like that), and submit a full version of the same bill for later consideration. The council would usually vote to pass the emergency legislation quickly (to immediately address whatever issue it covers) and then debate the fine details on what to do to fully address the issue when the full bill is addressed by the Council.
                            "I don't find myself in the same luxury as you. You grew up in freedom, and you can spit on freedom, because you don't know what it is not to have freedom." ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

                            Comment


                            • This is a pretty good discussion so far. I actually learn new stuff!


                              Yes, we have that too over here(emergency legislation). But what I meant was that the mayor of a town in The Netherlands by default has powers to instate special temporary 'laws'. Perhaps I use the word law incorrectly here, I don't know.

                              For instance, when a footballmatch is in danger of being spoiled by violent 'supporters'(ahem...), the mayor can singlehandedly decide that it is forbidden to sell alcohol for one or more days, this includes alcohol-sales in bars.
                              If he goes too far(which very rarely happens), the minister of national affairs(Homesecretary?) can criticize him, and it won't really look good on the mayor's resume. Furthermore, in an archaic remnant of the past, all mayors are appointed by the Queen, not by the current adminstration. So the Queen can tell a mayor to step down too.


                              So basically there is a dutch law that says that a mayor can instate temporary measures that can act as temporary local laws.

                              And here I am reading Catch-22 for the first time in my life...

                              Yossarian Lives!
                              Last edited by Towelmaster; 06-01-2006, 02:48 AM.
                              "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                                I am moderate, so the rest of you must be pretty leftist.

                                And remember, TM, John Kerry would be considered a far right kind of guy in Europe.
                                You have to be specific: moderate Republican, moderate conservative Republican, moderate fundamentalist ("The Ten Commandments should be law in America") Christian, moderate fiscal-conservative Republican, moderate social conservative Republican, etc.

                                No offense, Z'Dweller, but your posts come off as very right wing (my perception). Labelling everybody here as "pretty leftist" is very narrow-minded.

                                I consider myself a centrist, neither Demo or Repub b/c I believe many bad ideas/policies AND good ideas/policies come from both sides. Career policticians are another story; they're a mixed bag: often hard to find a good one; they are, generally, more interested in maintaining their seat of power and building influence with special-interest groups than helping present Americans and future Americans (kids). For instance, Social Security, Federal deficit, taxes (putiing more of the tax burden on average Americans every year, while corporations make more money -- every year), and the list goes on. Both political parties use the same tactics, they just claim a different tribe.

                                Personally, I don't like what Congress is doing or has done. They vote for bills every year that includes wasteful spending, and then later cry about lack of money. Anybody ever hear about the famous Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere project? Millions and millions of dollars have been spent every year on this ridiculous project serving, literally, a handful of people. Tom Brokaw used to have the "Fleecing of America" portion on his show (when he was alive, of course). Anybody remember that? For those in other countries and those that don't recall, it highlighted wasteful government spending.

                                Now, back on topic: Religion thread (straddling political thread)
                                While everybody has made valid points for and against the legislation regarding freedom of speech, specifically against this "church," everybody has also made invalid points for and against this legislative action by Congress.

                                The newspaper reported: The law indicates the "church" group can still protest, BUT there now is a 300 feet buffer zone. They can still scream (or whisper) into their bullhorns/microphone-amp system or use the old-fashioned vocal cords to spread their "gospel."

                                IMO, freedom of speech is still maintained. And, equally important, people can bury their loved ones in, relative, peace.
                                "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

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