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  • Originally posted by Jan
    I don't know for sure, but aren't harassment charges cumulative the way that trespass charges are? And some domestic disturbances?
    I maybe wrong, but it may be that way... and if it is then thatÆs a major problem, because if someone verbally abuses me on the street (for no apparent reason) and I feel threaten, how would I classify that event to be? Then what are my options? What if this person only verbally abuses Jews, or blacks? In this case it is only dead soldersà how will that be classified?

    Originally posted by Jan
    Ummm...correct me if I'm wrong but haven't the demonstrations been going on for a relatively short time? How was the determination made as to whether each and every local government has acted appropriately or not? I've read that several states are drafting legislation against this group too so perhaps the federal law was completely premature?
    Protesting the war in general has been escalating for years now, and nothing has happened. Protesting solders burials was just the next extreme level they had to gain a voice with the end result = outrage from a lot of people.

    I don't condone what they are doing, but if it is protected then my actions should be protected as well.
    "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rallytbk
      The federal government doesnÆt need to get involve unless local governments are neglecting or not enforcing the current laws already on the books.
      That is a good point.

      Originally posted by rallytbk
      I donÆt want the federal government to make that distinction, but in the interest of forcing local government (i.e. ending segregation when they forced states to integrate public schools) to enforce the current lawsà something has to be done about it.
      This true. I'm reading the mammoth history book by Pulitzer Prize author Taylor Branch "Parting The Waters: America In The King Years 1954-63. It goes very in-depth on this topic and everything else.
      "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rallytbk
        I maybe wrong, but it may be that way... and if it is then thatÆs a major problem, because if someone verbally abuses me on the street (for no apparent reason) and I feel threaten, how would I classify that event to be? Then what are my options? What if this person only verbally abuses Jews, or blacks? In this case it is only dead soldersà how will that be classified?
        What's the legal definition of hate speach?

        Protesting the war in general has been escalating for years now, and nothing has happened. Protesting solders burials was just the next extreme level they had to gain a voice with the end result = outrage from a lot of people.
        Am I misunderstanding something? My impression was that if they were protesting anything, it's the USA's tolerance of homosexuality and that they're trying to convince people that the soldier's deaths are retribution from god for that tolerance. In my book, that's not any kind of war protest.

        I don't condone what they are doing, but if it is protected then my actions should be protected as well.
        Which actions? I think I missed something.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

        Comment


        • Under the guise of their "church", they're very political.

          Their 10-house compound (Fred Phelps bought the 9 empty houses around his, since the neighbors moved away) flies the U.S. and Canadian flag upside-down (the internation sign of distress) all day and night, with the flags lit up during night.

          Every tragedy that has happened in the States (From 9-11, to the Space Shuttle Disaster, to Hurricane Katrina, to the mining incident last year), they proudly proclaim that they prayed for it, and that they thank god for it. Placards bearing phrases "Thank god for 9-11", "Thank god for Dead Miners", "Thank god for Katrina".

          The pool in the communal backyard was once used for baptisms, but has since been filled in. Either because one of Phelps' grand-daughters drowned or the government considered a swimming pool as a tax write-off for church related services.

          The garage on the compound has an extended cab/extended bed Ford F-150 which can hold between 7-10 people, and has enough room in the back for their placards, as they go hither and yon in this nation from one protest to another. The IRS refused to grant a tax write-off for the truck, since it's main use was for political actions, not religious.

          So, this "church" has always stretched the fine line between 'church related services' and 'political action'. I wouldn't consider this one example as an accurate portrayal of churches and taxes, nor should this one example be used as a description of all churches to give Jello Biafra's position that religion should be taxed some strength.

          Other websites that they operate:

          godhatesamerica.com
          godhatessweden.com
          RIP Coach Larry Finch
          Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
          Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

          Comment


          • I am leaving soon -- in fact, to go see X3 -- but you guys are in fact missing some...facts.

            This group isn't protesting gays. They're protesting EVERYTHING about the USA. I saw an interview with the head honcho, who looks like your average backwoods methlab technician. If we don't stop this soon, we're going to wind up with another Koresh/Jones/Applewhite situation.
            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

            Comment


            • If they have any more kids, I think genetics will kick in.

              The church is 90 members, and they're only allowed to marry other members of the church.

              So you have the Phelps clan, and Hockenbarger clan, which followed Phelps after he was voted out of his congregation at Eastside Baptist Church in 1955.

              From the Wikipedia article about Fred Phelps:

              Fred's position at Eastside was shortlived; as some congregants would recall years later, he was a "reverend from Hell." Almost immediately his sermons exhibited the hate-filled spirit which would later characterize his ministry. For example, as a means of encouraging the wives and children to "submit to the father's authority in the home," Phelps began encouraging his congregants to beat them if necessary; he was once forced to bail one of his parishioners out of jail after counseling the man to punch his wife in the face until she became "subjugated." Parishioners of Eastside recall one of Phelps' sermons in particular (which ironically references his high-school boxing talent):

              A good left hook makes for a right fine wife. Brethren, they can lock us up, but we'll still do what the Bible tells us to do. Either our wives are going to obey, or we're going to beat them!

              The congregants, when asked by the Topeka Capital-Journal in interviews years later, recalled an incident one Sunday morning when Phelps' infant son, Mark, began to squirm during a sermon; Phelps responded by repeatedly punching the baby in the face. Afterwards, several men of the congregation confronted Phelps about the attack.

              Phelps' dismissal from the church came when a female congregant admitted that she had committed adultery. The next Sunday, Phelps' sermon revolved around the woman, repeatedly referring to her as a whore and encouraging the congregation to draw up an official "form" declaring her to be damned to Hell and excommunicated from the church (a tactic he would later adopt frequently). Instead, the congregants voted to kick Phelps out of the church.

              Today, Phelps maintains that he left willingly because Cavin was not staunch enough of a Baptist. However, at least one Eastside congregant remembers it differently:

              Theological differences? Brother Cavin was a very staunch Baptist. I don't know if there ever was a man more strict than Leaford Cavin. Really, it was the anger in Fred, not doctrine, that caused him to act the way he did
              RIP Coach Larry Finch
              Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
              Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jan
                What's the legal definition of hate speech?
                You donÆt need hate speech to insult or harass a certain race/orientation of people. Denying them the right or access to places or events should be enough to classify it as harassment. Screaming and picketing is the source of the harassment.

                Originally posted by Jan
                Am I misunderstanding something?
                +
                My impression was that if they were protesting anything, it's the USA's tolerance of homosexuality and that they're trying to convince people that the soldier's deaths are retribution from god for that tolerance. In my book, that's not any kind of war protest.
                Then I donÆt find them convincing at all, in fact I find them deplorable, hateful and ungrateful, but since it is their opinion and they are expressing themselves, I now ask where would we (as a collective whole) draw the line? Do we wait until they interrupt the flow of traffic, transportation such as trains, planes and automobiles? Bomb some place? Solders burials doesnÆt seem to be it, so what is it. It doesnÆt take much for them to assume you wouldnÆt mind if they interrupted any and all events to get their point across.

                We don't want another Timothy McVeigh or any homegrown terrorist using our laws against us.
                "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WillieStealAndHow
                  Their 10-house compound (Fred Phelps bought the 9 empty houses around his, since the neighbors moved away)...The garage on the compound has an extended cab/extended bed Ford F-150...
                  godhatesamerica.com
                  godhatessweden.com
                  As I stated in my previous post: Where do they get all their money? What jobs they hold?

                  WSAH, thanks for the great info.

                  They have a HUGE amount of property. Ford F-150 extended cab/bed is NOT cheap. Z'Dweller saw an interview with the guy and said he looks like a backwoods methlab technician.

                  I'm just curious/suspicious as to how they were able to amass all this property. Thought: Church = tax exempt. So, I'm hoping the IRS is doing an audit on these guys. I'm thinking the only way these people could amass this much property is write-off a lot of stuff they classified as church business, but it wasn't church business.

                  Re: Wikepedia
                  Due to the nature of Wikepedia, I'm suspect of any info contained within it. Some of it may be accurate. Some info may be somewhat filled in with inaccurate info.

                  Re: Genetics kicking in
                  Yeah, maybe that's why the guy looked inbred.

                  The silver lining: At least they don't hate only the USA (Sweden). Bad joke, I know.
                  Last edited by manwithnoname; 05-27-2006, 10:38 AM.
                  "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rallytbk
                    We don't want another Timothy McVeigh or any homegrown terrorist using our laws against us.
                    There's a group called the National Alliance. Their goal: destabilize the Federal government through violent acts, thereby creating a vacuum. The National Alliance would then fill this vacuum. Take control of America. Remake America into an Aryan nation. A former Oregon State University physics professor is among their group. These are serious people. They are not dumb. We should be scared.
                    Last edited by manwithnoname; 05-27-2006, 10:39 AM.
                    "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by manwithnoname
                      There's a group called the National Alliance. There goal: destablize the Federal government through violent acts, thereby creating a vacuum. The National Alliance would then fill this vacuum. Take control of America. Remake America into an Aryan nation. A former Oregon State University physics professor is among their group. These are serious people. They are not dumb. We should be scared.
                      We should be as afraid of them as we are of MEChA, which has similar goals. They are nothing.
                      Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                        We should be as afraid of them as we are of MEChA, which has similar goals. They are nothing.
                        Never heard of MECha. What's the info.
                        "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                        Comment


                        • Mexican/Mexican-American group whose ultimate goal is to reconquer the southwest US. They hide behind the whole Latino pride/history curtain.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                          Comment


                          • Regarding this protest legislation business:

                            People always think that they can say whatever they want and that the First Amendment protects everything and that speech can't really be restricted. These people are ignorant of their actual Constitutional rights. When it comes to federal property, which is what I believe this legislation intends to cover (federal land used for cemeteries in this case), your First Amendment rights are most definitely not absolute and the government can limit them.

                            The language has to be right on the legislation, to make sure that it meets constitutional muster, but sure, they can write up a law prohibiting protest of cemeteries / funerals that are on federal land. It would ensure that you wouldn't see these assholes pulling their BS at Arlington National Cemetery, for example. I don't really have a problem with it.
                            "I don't find myself in the same luxury as you. You grew up in freedom, and you can spit on freedom, because you don't know what it is not to have freedom." ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

                            Comment


                            • "Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing."-Ra-ghoratrei
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                                Mexican/Mexican-American group whose ultimate goal is to reconquer the southwest US. They hide behind the whole Latino pride/history curtain.
                                Ahhhh. Thanks for answering my question, Z'Dweller. Did you enjoy X-Men III: The Last Stand? (New thread perhaps?)

                                I haven't seen it yet. No spoilers, please & thank you.
                                "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                                Comment

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