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  • Just so you know, I am reading the comments going back and forth in this thread... As an American, a combat veteran and tax paying/voter it pains me to see people protesting the wrong people.

    They all should just go to Washington DC and try that with the Federal Government. Sure it is their right to protest, but IMHO they are pointing it in the wrong directionà Just so you know, I was one of those kids who signed up for the Training and college moneyà and you know what? My orders during Operation Desert Shield came from the topà.



    Any way before going any further I wanted you to know I was reading this thread.
    "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WillieStealAndHow
      One would think that people would have the decency to allow a family to grieve without seeing such filth.
      One would think. But the Federal Government (or State or Local) has no business legislating manners. If we allow it when the group being supressed is one we disapprove of, what's to stop them when it's us?

      Originally posted by rallytbk
      They all should just go to Washington DC and try that with the Federal Government. Sure it is their right to protest, but IMHO they are pointing it in the wrong directionà
      That's their right also. Maybe it's a waste of time but that's their call, nobody else's.

      Jan
      Last edited by Jan; 05-25-2006, 01:29 PM.
      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

      Comment


      • Interesting discussion going on here from what I posted.

        The "church" group has been on the Howard Stern show several times before his escape to satellite. Their form of protesting is to shout at the top of their lungs: "God hates fags!" & "Burn in Hell!" & "God hates America!"

        In this particular case, they're not protesting in any way, shape, or form that's considered peaceful.

        Freedom of speech, yes.

        This group is not peacefully protesting. They are desecrating a moment. As someone pointed out earlier, they should be protesting at Washinton, DC.

        On the other hand, I do see what Jan is saying about using a sledgehammer against a gnat and political posturing.

        Sometimes, despite politicians' posturing and clamoring for the spotlight/attention ("See what I'm doing for the country?"), they actually do some good.

        If this was a case of peaceful protesters, that's a different situation altogether, but it's not.
        "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rallytbk
          As an American...
          Ditto.

          Originally posted by rallytbk
          ...a combat veteran...
          Ditto.

          Originally posted by rallytbk
          ...and tax paying/voter it pains me to see people protesting the wrong people.
          Ditto.
          "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."-Revelation 19:11-13
            Yo, Z'Dweller. You can start a Rampant Random Bible quote thread if you want. Just so you know. What you posted is considered off topic.

            <wink>
            "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

            Comment


            • Originally posted by manwithnoname
              In this particular case, they're not protesting in any way, shape, or form that's considered peaceful.

              Freedom of speech, yes.
              And that's my point, actually, although I got sidetracked. I despise what they're saying with every fiber of my being but I defend their right to say it. If we muzzled everybody in this country who's ignorant to six decimal places, there wouldn't be anybody left able to speak about much of anybody.

              But it'd be peaceful.

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

              Comment


              • See, the way this group is protesting is very similar to the way protesters were/are protesting some family planning (Planned Parenthood over here) clinics. The abortion clinic protesters yell, through various objects and suspicious fluids/solids, and spit, among other things.

                I'm not saying this "church" group is throwing things, but their methods are infringing on others' rights.

                Do you defend this type of protesting, Jan? Someone asked you that question earlier. It's a good question.
                "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jan
                  If we muzzled everybody in this country who's ignorant to six decimal places, there wouldn't be anybody left able to speak about much of anybody.

                  But it'd be peaceful.

                  Jan
                  That's why this is a tough issue. Even peaceful protests can disturb or infringe on others. On this subject, I understand both sides. I'm torn, really.

                  During the Civil Rights Movement, masses of poeple clogged the streets and disrupted the normal flow of everyday living while protesting. So...I understand your POV.

                  Both sides make valid arguments for and against. Now that the legislation is passed, only time will give the necessary hindsight to allow us to see if it's used judiciously. We'll see if certain groups will use this law to supress protesting when it's in their interest. Time will tell.

                  This is one of those double-edge sword laws; it cuts both ways.
                  "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                  Comment


                  • It isn't restricting free speech. They can say what they want, but son of a bitch, do it somewhere fifty miles away. Luckily, we have people like the Patriot Guard to make sure these religious kooks stay away from sacred funerals.
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by manwithnoname
                      See, the way this group is protesting is very similar to the way protesters were/are protesting some family planning (Planned Parenthood over here) clinics. The abortion clinic protesters yell, through various objects and suspicious fluids/solids, and spit, among other things.

                      I'm not saying this "church" group is throwing things, but their methods are infringing on others' rights.

                      Do you defend this type of protesting, Jan? Someone asked you that question earlier. It's a good question.
                      My answer to the original question is #191 in this thread:

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by WorkerCaste
                      You know, I think this is the first time you and I have really disagreed in the various off-topic discussions! I'm not convinced it's a gnat. What's your opinion of the law regarding protesting outside family planning clinics?

                      Jan's answer (the part that pertained to that question):
                      Just the same and I've been harrassed by them in the past, many times in the late 70's/early 80's.
                      I don't have any personal experience with fluids/throwing things but if that had happened to me, there'd have been an assault charge in no time flat. When I was going to clinics it was yelling hollaring, pictures of dead babies, 'bloody' babies on crosses etc.. They'd get pretty close but they got out of my way as I walked to the clinic. This was in the days before the clinics would have their employees or volunteers escort patrons in.

                      Originally posted by manwithnoname
                      Both sides make valid arguments for and against. Now that the legislation is passed, only time will give the necessary hindsight to allow us to see if it's used judiciously. We'll see if certain groups will use this law to supress protesting when it's in their interest. Time will tell.
                      Probably not. The ACLU has already swung into action so it'll be blocked, never enforced but those politicians will be able to go back and tell folks that they voted to protect the grieving families of our fallen heroes...posturing on the corpses of those men-now that's sick.

                      Jan
                      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                      Comment


                      • I know this is beating a topic to death (in the wrong thread no less), but Jan's got me wondering where the fine lines are. What constitutes criminal harassment? How much does a mob get a free pass because (a) they have a political agenda and/or (b) they are a religious group?

                        Either way, in the end, it's snakes or vermin winning this out, and that's a fairly horrid position for those in mourning.
                        Last edited by Radhil; 05-25-2006, 03:10 PM.
                        Radhil Trebors
                        Persona Under Construction

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Radhil
                          I know this is beating a topic to death (in the wrong thread no less), but Jan's got me wondering where the fine lines are. What constitutes criminal harassment? How much does a mob get a free pass because (a) they have a political agenda and/or (b) they are a religious group?

                          Either way, in the end, it's snakes or vermin winning this out, and that's a fairly horrid position for those in mourning.
                          Which is why you gotta take the law into your own hands sometimes. If I go to jail, then I go to jail. But I'm not going to stand by while somebody does that shit to MY loved one's funeral.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                            Which is why you gotta take the law into your own hands sometimes. If I go to jail, then I go to jail. But I'm not going to stand by while somebody does that shit to MY loved one's funeral.
                            The law that's been passed pertains to military funerals, not civilian's.

                            Does anyone here have a friend or family member currently serving?

                            The two guys I still keep in contact with that served in the Marine Corps with me are out. I don't have any family members serving.

                            So, Z'Dweller, if you go to jail, is that a left wing thing or a right wing thing? I ask b/c you like to label things in political extremes.
                            "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                            Comment


                            • I have no problem with peaceful protests.

                              I don't see anything peaceful about placards that I've typed out before, but I refuse to type again just because a part of me feels shameful about it.

                              This damned church from Kansas still has their website available. They still have the right to spout their hate behind the pulpit. However, displaying those placards that I've typed out earlier, at a cemetary where a family is laying their child to rest, who died while in service to his or her country is not peacefully protesting.

                              It's harassment and slander. Free speech doesn't cover harassing speech of any kind, libel of any kind, or slander of any kind.

                              That thrice-damned church is nothing but a bunch of nuts. Howard Stern has had them on his show, and NOT ONE person on his show agreed with their views. The daughter of Fred Phelps was on Hannity and Colmes a while back. Neither one agreed with what Westboro Baptist Church stands for, or their actions. Both hosts asked her if she had any shame.

                              Westboro Baptist Church on Hannity and Colmes

                              As much as I despise that church with every fiber of my being, they have a right to spout their hatred. However, they do not have the right to do so at a funeral for a soldier. That is harassing the family in mourning, and deserves nothing but scorn...

                              and a kick in the teeth
                              RIP Coach Larry Finch
                              Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                              Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jan
                                Veering dangerously close to the political thread, here but....Given that rationale, does that mean that the politcal protesters who are relegated out of sight (so I hear-I don't have any personal data) of the President and other high ranking officials shouldn't complain about being 'out of sight, out of mind'? Sure, they've got the right to protest but not the right to be heard?
                                If you look back, you'll notice I've exempted the relationship between representatives and their constituents, and added the ol' "unless it's my job" disclaimer. For me the distinction is in the context. What I object to is being forced to listen when I am going about my normal, every-day, non-polictical business. Shutting down political speech at an inherently political event in order to protect politicians does, in no way, fall under my rationale. Context has to make a difference, so long as the differences in context are not simply differences in beliefs.

                                Also, even though the "emotional state" argument is not one that I've been relying on, I'd offer that it does play into context as well, and that it is not as simple as hurt feelings. Push someone hard, and you're guilty of assault. Push someone hard when they're standing next to a cliff, and you're guilty of manslaughter at the very least. Given the physiological basis of many emotional states, the mental cliff and potential harm are just as real. After all, expressing your opinions is freedom of speech. Using that speech to intentionally cause distress or to prevent someone from doing something they are entitled to do (prevent, mind you, not just change their mind) is harrassment.
                                "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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