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  • Well, it is kinda puzzling why they couldn't have just shooed them away on disturbing peace charges or something else trumped up. Guess it's more of a politico bone. Gotta Look Like We're Doing Something.

    That said, goddamn these idiots for being as stupid as they are. Jesus H Tapdancing Christ, protesting funerals. What the fuck.
    Radhil Trebors
    Persona Under Construction

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    • That particular "church" from Kansas is basically a family and their friends. The city of Topeka views that group as a cancer. In fact, I don't know of a single person in christianity that supports them in any way, shape or form.

      Their website is www.godhatesfags.com

      Seriously. That's their URL
      RIP Coach Larry Finch
      Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
      Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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      • Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
        I don't mind it. I mean, I for one won't be protesting anybody's funeral.
        That's not the point at all. One minor point would be that if the federal government actually spent time on working on measures that are actually *useful* instead of empty posturing, maybe some work could get done on the real problems.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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        • IÆm actually OK with this one. I firmly believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe in a right to not listen, with the possible exception of a representative and their constituency . There are situations when people do not really have the choice to leave and not listen to someone exercising free speech. Laying a loved one to rest certainly qualifies. I think people should be shielded in those situations, much the same as I support buffer zones for protecting people entering family planning clinics and the like. Just like sidewalks are public, most cemetaries are as well. That makes it hard to evict them for trespassing, and political protests canÆt generally be considered disturbing the piece, otherwise that could be applied in many situations where speech shouldnÆt be impringed upon. Even though this is currently the work of a small group, I think it may well be a worthwhile protection to have in place.
          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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          • So you think it's something Congress needed to get involved in rather than the appropriate agency adopting a policy that funeral parties could have the option of 'invitation only' services whereby those not specified wouldn't be allowed on the grounds? I don't.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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            • Typically, these "folk" haven't been on the grounds, they've been picketing the entrances and exits. And in fact, that's what the law covers - distance from the graveyard entrances/exits and times before/after start of funeral.
              Radhil Trebors
              Persona Under Construction

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              • It's a valid point, Jan, but I'm not sure an administrative policy would be sufficient. It may very well require the force of law. Things get tricky around public lands, public access lands, and constitutional rights. That, and administrative policies usually only carry the threat of a usually manageable fine as opposed to the greater consequences associated with breaking the law. All that said, I haven't seen exactly what was passed so I don't know if they went too far.

                Also, I know it's not your main point here, but I don't think the "invitation only" concept would be workable. Most people mourning a death probably don't think they'll have protestors involved, and thus wouldn't request it. After some unexpected intrusions, though, it would become a pro forma request everyone made. Also, how would the public be notified of the status of a funeral, and what of people who came to pay respects to others buried in the cemetary where the funeral was taking place. Is it fair to make them wait?
                "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                • Originally posted by WorkerCaste
                  Also, I know it's not your main point here, but I don't think the "invitation only" concept would be workable. Most people mourning a death probably don't think they'll have protestors involved, and thus wouldn't request it. After some unexpected intrusions, though, it would become a pro forma request everyone made. Also, how would the public be notified of the status of a funeral, and what of people who came to pay respects to others buried in the cemetary where the funeral was taking place. Is it fair to make them wait?
                  I would imagine that whoever they contacted at the cemetary to arrange for the internment would be the ones to offer that option. It could be that there only be certain 'windows' available for those private services and it might need to be enforced by security/police for a while. The point is that a Federal Law for the issue is like killing a gnat with a sledge hammer.

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                  Comment


                  • You know, I think this is the first time you and I have really disagreed in the various off-topic discussions! I'm not convinced it's a gnat. What's your opinion of the law regarding protesting outside family planning clinics?
                    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                    • Gnats is all the congressional sledgehammer can really handle these days. I mean, c'mon, it's been slamming on everything else - and shattering.
                      Radhil Trebors
                      Persona Under Construction

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                      • Originally posted by WorkerCaste
                        You know, I think this is the first time you and I have really disagreed in the various off-topic discussions! I'm not convinced it's a gnat. What's your opinion of the law regarding protesting outside family planning clinics?
                        Just the same and I've been harrassed by them in the past, many times in the late 70's/early 80's. I understand all the arguments about the emotional state of the people going to the clinics or attending funerals but...well, the government wasn't set up to protect people from hurt feelings or being offended.

                        See, that's the thing...it's easy to believe in free speech and many other freedoms as long as you're the one benefitting from it. It's much harder when you're violently opposed to what the other guy is using that freedom to espouse.

                        But as Delenn said, my voice will be as free as theirs.

                        Jan
                        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                        Comment


                        • For me it's not the emotional state argument or the hurt feelings. It's the staging such that I cannot simply ignore you while conducting my normal, legitimate activites. To me that moves from liberty to license. Stand in a public place -- I can give you a wide berth. Speak on TV or radio, I can turn you off. Write an editorial, book, article -- I can skip it. Post on an internet discussion board -- well, you get the picture. I will defend your right to say whatever you want as vigorously as I'll defend my own. Just don't try to make me listen (unless it's my job.)
                          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                          • When the "church" bears signs and placards outside the cemetary that read "Thank god for 9-11", "God hates America", "Your child burns in hell" while a family in mourning is laying their child to rest who served his or her nation, those idiots need to shut the fuck up.

                            In those instances, free speech should take a back seat to tact, respect, civility, and ethics. That church in Topeka, Kansas which this bill was directed at lacks everything I listed and then some.
                            RIP Coach Larry Finch
                            Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                            Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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                            • Originally posted by WorkerCaste
                              I will defend your right to say whatever you want as vigorously as I'll defend my own. Just don't try to make me listen (unless it's my job.)
                              Veering dangerously close to the political thread, here but....Given that rationale, does that mean that the politcal protesters who are relegated out of sight (so I hear-I don't have any personal data) of the President and other high ranking officials shouldn't complain about being 'out of sight, out of mind'? Sure, they've got the right to protest but not the right to be heard?

                              Originally posted by WillieStealAndHow
                              In those instances, free speech should take a back seat to tact, respect, civility, and ethics.
                              "Should" being the operative word. I don't know about you but I sure don't want the government dictating manners. Or even local.

                              Jan
                              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                              Comment


                              • What reason is there to protest the funeral of a soldier? What reason is there to harass a family burying their child who died serving his or her country with a sign that reads "FAG ENABLERS GO TO HELL", "GOD HATES AMERICA" and other such garbage?

                                Westboro Baptist Church has a right to spout such garbage on their website, and shamefully proclaim from behind the pulpit. One would think that people would have the decency to allow a family to grieve without seeing such filth.
                                RIP Coach Larry Finch
                                Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
                                Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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