RIP - Terri Shaivo

[Becky S.]

I agree, Radhil. Very good article!

[Jan]

While it sidesteps into a bit of mild opinionating that might offend some here, most of the facts in the case regarding Terri and the fight over her fate are summed up in this article. Everything I've read in it has seemed to bear out.

Thanks for the link. I've been astounded at the amounts of money people have thought that the husband was supposed to be trying to get control over. One person told me that it was 70 million even.

Jan

[Radhil]

This was not the impression that I got from the news coverage. Granted, I did not follow every minute detail of it... who has the time? From everything I could determine, she had that ability. If not, weren't they concerned about her choking to death when they gave her communion? Hmm... very interesting.

The medical information surrounding her case stated that she couldn't swallow. Her parents stated that she could. The news very often did not bother to find out which was true. Please keep in mind a bit of common sense, however - if she could swallow, she would have had no need for the feeding tube in the first place.

While it sidesteps into a bit of mild opinionating that might offend some here, most of the facts in the case regarding Terri and the fight over her fate are summed up in this article. Everything I've read in it has seemed to bear out.

[SpanishFan]

I've re-read what I wrote the other day, and I think I didn't made myself as clear as I intended (the language barrier, you know).
What I meant was that, under normal circumstances, if the brain receives no oxigen for, say, twenty minutes, that person is never going to wake up. For all intends and purposes, that person is dead. If they are re-lived and plugged to a machine, that leaves the family in a difficult position, since they will eventually have to decide to disconnect them, feeling that they have somehow killed them. That maybe there is still a chance they will wake up if they wait a little longer. When there's not.
However, (and I apologize if this sounds rougher in English), if they are let go, it's "cleaner" for the family, less complicated. S/He is dead, period. They can deal with it and move on more easily than in a case like this.

That said, as a catholic, I do believe miracles can and do happen, so I understand it when people hold on to their faith. But, if someting happens to me, and the only options are death and months/years in a comma without a chance of waking up, I prefer death. If there is a possibility of waking up, it's differen't, but if there's not...

[Jan]

If not, weren't they concerned about her choking to death when they gave her communion? Hmm... very interesting.

What she was given for Communion was a drop of wine and crumb of Host, not anything resembling what one would ordinarily receive. This was described the times that she was given whatever they're calling the Last Rites these days.

Jan

[Ariake]

She was not capable of swallowing. It requires several coordinated muscle movements to move food, and she had nothing to coordinate with. Normal feeding would have choked her to death.

Out of curiosity, where did you hear that? I'd like to follow up on that.

This was not the impression that I got from the news coverage. Granted, I did not follow every minute detail of it... who has the time? From everything I could determine, she had that ability. If not, weren't they concerned about her choking to death when they gave her communion? Hmm... very interesting.

In Spain, too, the media have been following this case (not as much as in the US, I guess). My mother, who is a doctor, said that she should have never been reanimated 15 years ago. I donÆt recall right now for how long was her brain without oxygen, but it was far more than six minutes, which is generally considered the limit after which itÆs not worth it.
As it happens, a friend of my motherÆs was in the exact same situation years ago. He was re-animated after too much time and spent his last six months in a comma.
Switching off is much harder than not switching on. Both for the patient and for the relatives.

Personally, I would want to be given the chance to come back should something like this happen to me. I believe that anything is possible through God as long as one has faith. After all, as everyone on this particular board should know, "Faith manages."

[SpanishFan]

In Spain, too, the media have been following this case (not as much as in the US, I guess). My mother, who is a doctor, said that she should have never been reanimated 15 years ago. I donÆt recall right now for how long was her brain without oxygen, but it was far more than six minutes, which is generally considered the limit after which itÆs not worth it.
As it happens, a friend of my motherÆs was in the exact same situation years ago. He was re-animated after too much time and spent his last six months in a comma.
Switching off is much harder than not switching on. Both for the patient and for the relatives.

[Radhil]

However, the feeding tube is not what upsets me the most... it is the refusal to allow nourishment of any kind be administered to Mrs. Shaivo. Why couldn't they feed her by hand?

She was not capable of swallowing. It requires several coordinated muscle movements to move food, and she had nothing to coordinate with. Normal feeding would have choked her to death.

[Jan]

Hi Becky!

This aid in passing happens everyday all over the country. It is legal and humane. Perhaps if Terri's family could have agreed, she could have had such a passing.

Morphine or other narcotics used for pain relief is absolutely legal. Deliberately administering enough to cause death isn't...though yes, it can and does happen if you have a compassionate care provider. Terri Shiavo didn't have any condition that would warrant morphine or other pain medication and the first suit filed by the family pretty much guaranteed that no compassionate medical intervention could/would be taken due to increased scrutiny.

By the way, if anybody isn't familiar with hospice care, I cannot speak highly enough of them. Hospice is dedicated to the comfort, quality of life and dignity of the patient, generally in the last six months of life. When my eldest sister was in their care, they thought of everything, from having someone come in to do personal grooming to recognizing signs of pain even though she was unconscious or unable to communicate much of the time and prescribing morphine when needed. Nothing they did hastened my sister's death in any way but helped both my sister and her family in many many ways.

My, where'd this soap box come from? I don't even use this brand! <g>

Jan

[Becky S.]

A Slight Correction...

Hello everyone.

I have been reading everyone's views and opions of Terri Shaivo's passing and felt I should add something. First, I am glad her suffering - in whatever form you view it - is over. And I am disappionted that politicans are using this as champaign strategy. It should have remained a private family matter.

A few years ago, my mother was fighting cancer and an infection. It was slowly killing her. The doctors could have pumped her full of antibiotics and fought off the infection and continued her chemo and allowed her a few more years to live. But she would have to have been under doctor's care the entire time and in the hospital almost all of the time. Additionally, she would have been on some form of life support through it all. She never wanted that and neither did we. After discussing it with the doctors, we had her life support pulled and she was given high injections of morphine. Twenty minutes later, she was free.

My boyfriend's mother passed in a similar way. Poor blood ciculation had caused parts of her body to begin to shut down. After discussing it with her doctors, the choice was made to ease both her pain and passing. She was given a constant morphine drip. She passed without pain a few days later.

This aid in passing happens everyday all over the country. It is legal and humane. Perhaps if Terri's family could have agreed, she could have had such a passing.

[Ariake]

My 2ó:

I don't feel that there was anything merciful about this. To me, it was a much worse death than people on death row receive. However, the feeding tube is not what upsets me the most... it is the refusal to allow nourishment of any kind be administered to Mrs. Shaivo. Why couldn't they feed her by hand? When my Grandfather had a stroke a couple of years before he died, he could no longer feed himself, talk, or move, yet we continued to feed him by hand. We gave him all of his medications by crushing them into powder and giving them to him in either applesauce, water, juice, or something else that he could easily eat. From everything I have heard, there was nothing stopping this same thing from happening with Terry.

Removing a feeding tube as a form of life support is one thing, but purposefully starving someone is something people go to jail for... neglect anyone? And IMHO, every person directly responsible for not allowing food/water (in any form) to be brought to her should go to jail for the same amount of time that those who abuse children in this same way do.

Anyway, I'm sure many will disagree, but like I said... that's my 2ó.

[FuryPilot]

To me, the only thing that matters is what Terri was going through.

If all of the experts were correct, then the personality known as Terri has been dead for 15 years. Her body survived, but little else.

And if they were wrong, and Terri was still semi-conscious in there somewhere? Then for 15 years she has been locked in a prison of her own body, unable to communicate or interact with loved ones or anything else in the outside world.

I would be hard-pressed to imagine a worse hell on Earth than that.

[David Panzer]

That's the thing about the States that I, as resident of said country, breathe a sigh of relief. I do remember about a year or so ago about a nurse in Austria who euthanized patients under her care, about 30 or so, some of whom were not suffering from a terminal condition.

Doctors in America cannot administer a lethal amount of drugs or whatever whose sole intent is to kill. Ask Dr. Kevorkian about what happens when a doctor does. If the patient can communicate, he or she can refuse to take medicine, if suffering from cancer they can refuse another round of chemotherapy.

Neither side in the Schiavo debacle convinced me fully that their side was correct. Rhetoric and unfounded accusations took the place of rational, civilized discourse. The one person who could have made her wishes known to clear things up, had no way to communicate those wishes at all.

Everyone in my family that I asked, and also those friends I asked as well, they all said that if they were in a similar condition as Mrs. Schiavo, they wouldn't want to be kept alive. Neither would I.

There are 2 things that I will take away from this entire debacle: 1 - use whatever resources are available to clearly state my wishes in the event that I'm unable to do so, and 2 - that those who protest whatever they choose to protest, must have jobs with lackadaisical attendance policies.

[Jan]

Thats what i meant,i don't have anything against life support,the question was about stopping the life support and letting that person suffer for so long.

That's one of the issues with this particular case. Shiavo wasn't on any kind of real life support such as a respirator or kidney machine. The only artificial means was the feeding tube. But no, there are no provisions for removing life support and then administering a medication to end life.

Jan

[Ranger1]

Thats what i meant,i don't have anything against life support,the question was about stopping the life support and letting that person suffer for so long.