Whedonesque shuts down following allegations about Whedon being a serial cheater

[Kraig]

All I have to say is "grr argh."

[DDC2017]

Once you become famous some people want to tear you down.

"Now that he's dead and can't defend himself, the real Truth behind Hugh Hefner's secret dungeon at Playboy mansion". (oops- It was just a film vault.sorry folks)


Or,,,,,

Elvis' secret love child tells all.

Gene Roddenberry's adult film collection discovered in hidden vault.

*sigh*

[Delenn_of_Mir]

I just heard about this from here.

I can't say I really thought a lot about Joss, so didn't have any strong opinions on the kind of person he was/is. I don't think it's ever a good idea to put celebs up on a pedestal.

Cheating is awful, and cos I don't have any feelings about Joss one way or the other, it's easier for me to just call him a creep and leave it at that.

But I love Johnny and June Carter Cash. And they cheated together, for a long time. I read Johnny's wife's biography. It was really interesting and filled with a lot more vitriol than Kai's blog post. But even though I was able to deeply sympathize with his ex, I still really love Johnny and June.

So I imagine that anyone who really loves Joss isn't going to stop just because they found out he's also a cheater.

And I'm not going to stop watching any of his shows or anything cos I like them a lot.

I'm not sure about the "Is he really a feminist or not" argument because I think we have to define what a feminist is first. And then decide whether cheating is the opposite of that. So I don't have an opinion on that. (shakes head)

I don't have a problem with Kai sharing what happened though. Whatever her motives. I'm sure it's galling to listen to people gush over her ex when she feels he's the total opposite of all the good stuff people say about him.

Hopefully, this doesn't negatively affect any of the actresses he's worked with though. I can't say I disliked any of them except for whoever played Kennedy, and even then it was just the character I hated. Have no idea who the actress was.

I guess those are all the thoughts I have about this. You're welcome for my sharing them with you.

[sarthaz]

Really? I find this a very cynical reading of the situation. If anything I would think more 'time spent on set / working on a show' would naturally equate to some chemistry and relationships being formed. Not 'if you don't sleep with me I'll ruin your career'. Apologies if i have misread your itent with the above, but that seems a bit harsh to me. I would have thought we'd have seen some actresses speaking out if Whedon was that manipulative. Personally, I don't think so. Things happen when people work in close quarters like that. All I really took away from this was that Joss is human too, as messes up from time to time, like the rest of the species.

I think what you suggest is totally possible. It could be 100% mutual close-quarters relationships or 100% person-in-power manipulating people to his will or somewhere in between. But this is why workplaces have rules against subordinate relationships. You can't really know. I am in no way suggesting that I know what happened, and I'd like to believe that it's all just close-quarters love-on-set stuff, but beyond his failed responsibilities as husband and father, he also had a responsibility as a producer. And it's not a stretch to think that a serial philanderer who took liberties in other areas didn't also push the boundaries of power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding him to a higher standard than anyone else, and I don't doubt a good 50% or more of men in his position probably would have behaved the same way. I just don't think it's appropriate to put his subordinates on the same level of assholishness. As for people speaking out, regardless of what happened with anyone, no one has anything to gain by speaking about anything. Unless it's a full-on Cosby situation, no one with an active career is going to talk about this.

If I had to guess, I'd guess some of it was mutual, some people used him, and he used others. Just a gut on human nature. But I could be totally wrong and don't intend to be overly cynical. Perhaps I am, though.

[Ubik]

I'd be surprised if some of these women (if not most) weren't led to believe career paths and futures were at stake (no pun intended), as sadly, such things are fairly common in said industry. As such, all assholes are not created equal, so to speak.

Really? I find this a very cynical reading of the situation. If anything I would think more 'time spent on set / working on a show' would naturally equate to some chemistry and relationships being formed. Not 'if you don't sleep with me I'll ruin your career'. Apologies if i have misread your intent with the above statement, but that seems a bit harsh to me. I would have thought we'd have seen some actresses speaking out if Whedon was that manipulative. Personally, I don't think so. Things happen when people work in close quarters like that. All I really took away from this was that Joss is human too, and messes up from time to time, like the rest of the species.

[sarthaz]

Oh, I'll blame her, no problem. She's crossed the line into pure spite and I've got no use for that, regardless of how hurt she might be. Nobody but the two of them and their attorneys had any business knowing anything about their issues. The *only* reason for that letter was to hurt him in the eyes of fans.

That's fair. I guess having seen both sides of this in many families, I tend to be more forgiving of obviously bad choices made by people who have been wronged over a long period of time. It doesn't excuse it, and I don't disagree with its transparent pettiness.

Since I don't use sexually linked terms, I'd call him an asshole. And every woman he was involved with would also get that descriptor. In this day and age, no way any woman could pretend that she didn't know that Joss Whedon was married.

I'd argue the asshole is more sexually linked these days than a douchebag, but I'll go with it. And no doubt -- there's lots of blame to go around. The only caveat I'd give towards that is age and power. I don't know who the who's are in this, and I totally don't discount that this goes both ways, but there is a distinction between the power one wields as writer/producer/director/show-runner and, well, pretty much everyone else involved. I'd be surprised if some of these women (if not most) weren't led to believe career paths and futures were at stake (no pun intended), as sadly, such things are fairly common in said industry. As such, all assholes are not created equal, so to speak.

[Jan]

I know that's what his ex wants us all to do, and I'm not going to blame an aggrieved spouse for anything she does at this point, but I don't go there with it.

Oh, I'll blame her, no problem. She's crossed the line into pure spite and I've got no use for that, regardless of how hurt she might be. Nobody but the two of them and their attorneys had any business knowing anything about their issues. The *only* reason for that letter was to hurt him in the eyes of fans.

That he is probably a douchebag doesn't really change that, and I don't really conflate feminism with fidelity.

Since I don't use sexually linked terms, I'd call him an asshole. And every woman he was involved with would also get that descriptor. In this day and age, no way any woman could pretend that she didn't know that Joss Whedon was married.

[sarthaz]

Sad story, but all too familiar. I'm probably a robot, but I'm totally able to separate Whedon the husband from Whedon the feminist from Whedon the artist, and I don't make the leap from cheating philanderer to non-feminist. I know that's what his ex wants us all to do, and I'm not going to blame an aggrieved spouse for anything she does at this point, but I don't go there with it. I learned long ago that our entertainment "heroes" will almost always let you down. You may have shared a moment with them at a convention or think they're something from their public persona, but you never have any idea what they're like for real, so it's always dangerous, always folly to conflate their art with their person.

In the case of Whedon, he consistently and repeatedly wrote strong female characters, created strong stories for them to shepherd, and advanced the cause of women in entertainment and to some extent women's rights across the board. That he is probably a douchebag doesn't really change that, and I don't really conflate feminism with fidelity.

[Satai with Punsch]

And if that were what anybody were to think, that's really, really sick. Sad that anybody could have such a disgusting double standard in this day and age.

It is sad indeed.
Now when we have been told that he has had multiple affairs and inappropriate emotional ones (I am not sure what that actually means though) with actresses as well as co-workers everyone looking for a reason to discredit anyone or just looking for something sensational will assume the worst about all of them. As we will never know the details all kinds of speculations can run wild.

[Jan]

... and make sure that all females that have worked with him now have a slept her way to the job-stamp.

And if that were what anybody were to think, that's really, really sick. Sad that anybody could have such a disgusting double standard in this day and age.

[Satai with Punsch]

This whole business is just sad, for everyone involved.

I do not think these things belong in the public eye at all. Sure, I can understand that she wanted to point out the fact that Whedon is a terrible person and make sure that all females that have worked with him now have a slept her way to the job-stamp.

But to try to word it that he does not deserve to call him self a feminist or the awards he have won, that is going to far. His TV-shows and his awards are all things that outsiders judged based on how it affected them. That have nothing to do with his family failures. If it turns out that all his strong female characters and such were invented by her, well, then it is a different story. But I am rather sure we will never get any unbiased details about this.

What saddens me the more though is that this will color peoples view of the shows.

What saddens me most is that the great Whedonesque site is shutting down. Although it was a decision years in the making, this was probably the final straw. That place have been my link to a fan community on the same level as the Babylon 5 one for almost 15 years and a comfy blanket.

All in all i am very sad and disheartened today

[phazedout]

I'm inclined to agree in terms of the body of the work.

My cf on this is Orson Scott Card. Having read the enders game series when IW as a lot ounger and subsequently read two of the gate thief series, his opinions on women and the way in which he writes both Male (dominant, controlling) and female (subserviant, baby machines) characters makes it very ccelar in the work that his viewpoint comes through. I've never had issues with any of Joss's female characters, Card on the other hand, makes me very uncomfortable when reading.

[Jonas]

Agreed with all of the above.

[Ubik]

I think...it's none of my business.

It's a shame - but my main hope, having a slightly similar experience is that she doesn't allow herself to become (rather, remain) bitter. It's somewhat obvious that the article(s) are self-serving. For instance, I look askance at the 'complex PTSD' given what little we know about the circumstances.

Other than that, I don't expect people whose work I like and admire to be anything less than human. The fact that he's written some amazing and powerful woman characters isn't changed by this. Those characters still remain. And I agree that his (allegedly) having done some sleazy things doesn't make him less of a feminist.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter perfectly. It's a shame that in this day and age, he will be dragged through the mud on every social media platform by 'holier than thou' numbskulls. It's when I pity people being celebrities, because your personal life can be very public.

[Jan]

I think...it's none of my business.

It's a shame - but my main hope, having a slightly similar experience is that she doesn't allow herself to become (rather, remain) bitter. It's somewhat obvious that the article(s) are self-serving. For instance, I look askance at the 'complex PTSD' given what little we know about the circumstances.

Other than that, I don't expect people whose work I like and admire to be anything less than human. The fact that he's written some amazing and powerful woman characters isn't changed by this. Those characters still remain. And I agree that his (allegedly) having done some sleazy things doesn't make him less of a feminist.