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  • Environmental Treaties

    I am giving this its own thread.

    From Towelmaster's posting on the F911 thread.
    Hi Andrew,

    Well I just couldn't let it lie, sorry... Hope you don't mind.





    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
    The Kyoto Treaty became a silly joke when India and China were exempt. That is where all the new factories and additional cars are going.

    Environmentalists have had 4 years to write something that is not totally irrelevant. They have had 3 years to test the effectiveness of the new rules in environmentally friendly countries.

    California is heavily into environmentalism and the USA is being attacked by hurricanes created by global warming. (For 40 years ending 12 years ago there were no hurricanes.) Consequently failure to have US support is an act of gross incompetence. Develop environmental rules that work by using hard facts, not play a game of impressing the boyfriend by emotional displays of caring.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Exactly! So why did the U.S. do nothing? As the only superpower why did they fail to come up with alternative solutions? If you can come up with something like SDI surely you must be able to offer an alternative? Mind You : I do not single out the U.S. The rest of the world failed to do so too. But "neither did you" is not really an excuse once you grow to be over 10 years old.
    The U.S. did nothing because a reduction of snow in New York and Amsterdam plus an increase in the agricultural land in Alaska does not sound like a problem.

    No one has told Washington DC that keeping the temperatures of the Atlantic and Pacific below 27 degrees Centigrade is a matter of major national importance.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/feature...phabet41.shtml
    27 degrees is the water temperature at which hurricanes and typhoons form. To have a safety margin keep it under 25 degrees Centigrade.

    Consequently some readers of this thread have had to do without electricity.


    To prevent hurricanes U.S. Weather Control Laws will have to be tough, we are literally fighting the heat of the sun. The laws will also be expensive but so is the cost of doing nothing.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3633458.stm
    Plus the cost of the floods in California and the work lost because people were in the shelters.


    At least over 170 countries at least showed the spirit of cooperation. That alone is worth a lot. From one treaty comes another one, possibly a better one. Because what I see is that we are now in the fourth year of Bush' presidency and what may I ask, are the alternatives he has offered so far? None, absolutely nothing. More the other way around as you undoubtedly know. Alaska is no longer safe because "The roads must roll" to misquote Robert Anson Heinlein.
    No the only cooperation that 170 countries have shown is that they all have politicians that lie.

    Example - how many hospitals in your country have been closed by the Environmental Police, and all their nurses fired, because they are using too much energy? None?

    US politicians get a lot of hassle when they are caught lying so they try and avoid it. Ask Clinton.


    You mentioned India and China being exempt of the restrictions in the Kyoto-treaty. That is very true, but they do not use up 25 % of all energy-supplies in the world, the U.S. does. They do not cause over 25 % of all pollution, the U.S. does. And the U.S. holds around what? - 300 million people? Compared to 6 billion worldwide. If we would distribute everything fairly the U.S. would only get 5 % of it all and the economy would come to a screeching halt.
    Not for much longer. India and China are increasing their energy usage so that the USA's quota will some become less than 20%.

    So I would think that the Kyoto-treaty might at least have been a start. It would have been a signal. There are no easy roads in international politics...

    BTW : To the best of my knowledge California is the only state in the U.S.A. that goes to such extremes in their environmental laws. But California does not sign international treaties, the president does(well....he can ).
    Andrew Swallow

  • #2
    Not for much longer. India and China are increasing their energy usage so that the USA's quota will some become less than 20%.
    So what? That would be a cheap excuse for doing nothing.

    I agree on the lying-politicians-point but still, it isn't an excuse for just letting it go. Hell, someone has to start. And, if i'm liking it or not, nobody cares about us europeans unless we act together which is almost impossible to achieve. So it really doesn't matter if some european countries start to do something. It would count a lot if the U.S. would do something. Think of it like the eoropeans are Sheridan and the U.S. is Kosh. And now imagine Sheridan asking Kosh to give him a hand in bringing the other countries together just by signing a silly treaty or anything else.

    And don't you dare to remind me of european hypocrisy on this particular topic....it always gives me headaches...

    Comment


    • #3
      I just watched last Friday's NOW with Bill Moyers (PBS Fri 7PM CST) and they interviewed a scientist studying global warming in the Colorado Rockies. He decided to test the effects by warming sections of fields by 5 degrees Farenheit for a year, maybe two or three, I don't recall.

      Not only did he find that the field lost most of its plant diversity, the warmed soil also lost 20% of its carbon into atmospheric CO2. The control fields were full of wildflowers, the test fields contained only sagebrush. The really scary part is that global warming will happen more quickly than previously thought, because of the additional CO2 from the ground adding to what we're putting there.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yep, it will probably work like that. The problem with most climate issues is that once something is out of balance it starts a vicious circle. This can happen even without human interference; but we shouldn't create more problems than we already have.

        Comment


        • #5
          "Is this bad news? I'm always a little chilly."-Dennis Miller
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

          Comment


          • #6
            WOW! A new thread? I'm honoured...
            Thanks Andrew.

            Just for the record : There is a lot of America-bashing going on in the world at the moment. My posting should really not be considered as such.

            I agree with Andrew that honest politicians are very rare all over the world. But I still think they should address this subject.

            Andrew wrote :

            Example - how many hospitals in your country have been closed by the Environmental Police, and all their nurses fired, because they are using too much energy? None?
            We do not have to start with the hospitals. How about the price of 1 litre of petrol in Holland is USD 1,40 ? Compared to the US? And yes I know that americans need to be mobile because you have a huge country. But even so petrol-use is being discouraged immensely over here. And there are many more examples like that one. Those energy-efficient car-prototypes the companies are designing are not designed for the American market, save for California, at the moment.

            If the environmentalists have it all wrong and we do nothing not too much will go wrong(relatively speaking). If they are right and we do nothing we basically are "monumentally screwed".

            We cannot afford to hope that it will be nothing and that it will al blow over. So in my view you don't have to be a die-hard environmentalist to be worried.


            A question: from some of Andrew's words I gather that you don't get the same sort of information that we do about the environmental changes etcetera. Could the american forumtigers tell me something about that? What kind of picture is being painted in the States as compared to abroad? Are you told you should worry or is the general tendency to tell people not to worry? Is it easy to get in-depth information?

            TM.
            "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Is it easy to get in-depth information?
              Obviously you've never seen a Fox News broadcast.

              Or perhaps you have. Rupert Murdock, anyone?

              What we get is the modern equivalent of "Bread & Circuses".
              Well, the Circus part, anyway.
              They're holding out on the Bread.

              Fear Factor. Jackass. Infomercials disguised as the 6:00 News.

              They haven't killed anyone On Camera. Yet.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bakana
                Obviously you've never seen a Fox News broadcast.

                Or perhaps you have. Rupert Murdock, anyone?

                What we get is the modern equivalent of "Bread & Circuses".
                Well, the Circus part, anyway.
                They're holding out on the Bread.

                Fear Factor. Jackass. Infomercials disguised as the 6:00 News.

                They haven't killed anyone On Camera. Yet.
                Just move, then. Sheesh...
                Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                Comment


                • #9
                  And give in? That doesn't sound very American to me.

                  Besides : first we take America, then the rest of the world. You can't run from something that is exported from the States.
                  "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Towelmaster
                    And give in? That doesn't sound very American to me.

                    Besides : first we take America, then the rest of the world. You can't run from something that is exported from the States.
                    There is nothing wrong with the US in the first place. Jeez, if we're so immoral, then why is the age of consent TWELVE in The Netherlands? Nothing personal...just the facts.
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                      There is nothing wrong with the US in the first place. Jeez, if we're so immoral, then why is the age of consent TWELVE in The Netherlands? Nothing personal...just the facts.
                      Straw Man argument with the age of consent... let's light a virtual match to burn that straw and move on over the ashes.

                      The first thing that's wrong with the USA is that many citizens automatically deny that something can be wrong.
                      That's not patriotism, real patriots will criticize their country and their leaders when they think they're doing something wrong.
                      Uncritical nationalism leads a country to stagnation... or worse.

                      I'm sure many thought there was nothing wrong with the thirteen colonies either, had they dominated the events there would be no USA...
                      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Straw Man argument with the age of consent... let's light a virtual match to burn that straw and move on over the ashes.
                        It's a straw man, but I'm actually interested in the answer, so long as it doesn't bog down the thread.

                        PM if you like, Towelmaster.
                        Radhil Trebors
                        Persona Under Construction

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          <<The first thing that's wrong with the USA is that many citizens automatically deny that something can be wrong.>>

                          Lots of things are wrong, and I can admit that:

                          1. Attacks on civilians by terrorists.

                          2. Political correctness keeping us from protecting ourselves from said terrorists.

                          3. UN and EU bigwigs criticizing the US for its so called agenda, when the UN is the most corrupt and hypocritical institution out there.

                          That's what's wrong.

                          <<That's not patriotism, real patriots will criticize their country and their leaders when they think they're doing something wrong.>>

                          I have heard many a college professor profess this line, but how do you arrive at that conclusion? How is being a real patriot being against something that in the long run helps your country? And the key word in your statement there is think.

                          And we get criticism all the time. Does it do any good? Does it make the US "less stagnant?" Don't know. But there is criticism out there. I don't mean there is nothing wrong in the US period. There is nothing wrong with a system that has worked for over 225 years. And I also meant it in a defensive way as TM thought we were exporting something bad.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just move, then. Sheesh...
                            Gee. Recycled 1060's "Witty Comment".

                            If you don't like America, move to Russia!

                            In fact, the most patriotic thing you can DO is raise your voice in protest ANY Time Government does something you don't like.

                            If enough people Agree, the US Constitution guarantees us the Right to Change our Government.

                            OTOH, the US Constitution doesn't give the Government ANY "Rights".
                            If you read it carefully, it's a LONG List of things the Government is Forbidden to do.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                              I have heard many a college professor profess this line, but how do you arrive at that conclusion? How is being a real patriot being against something that in the long run helps your country? And the key word in your statement there is think.
                              You're exactly right, because everything's perspective and such.

                              You do realize, of course, that that same arguement can be turned around and used against you. The perspective that safety is more important than certain liberties is one opinion. The perspective that liberties are more important than safety is another. You're using a double-edge arguement, and pretending it only applies one way.

                              That's the greater problem in the country really. Call it a greed of opinion, if you will. Everyone thinks one way or the other, and is more interested in being right (or righteous) than in actually doing the work to figure out what the workable middle ground is. One side would rather just tell the other to go away, like you just did.

                              I had this pointed out to me actually, on another board. One person had the guts to stand up and say all the BS over the politics didn't matter anymore. I called him out on it, that of course it mattered, and he schooled me, told me to come up with solutions rather than come up with blame. Smart man, I realized. So we turned the thread around, both of us trying to figure out solutions to the war, putting out a call for anyone to join in.

                              Five days later, I think we had three posts. On a board that ran about a hundred posts discussing WMDs.

                              Move? This is home, man. But no one seems interested in fixing it anymore.

                              So I might eventually. It's actually crossed my mind.

                              (we now return you to your regularly scheduled topic, as I think the spillover of Just About Everything Else has hijacked it enough)
                              Radhil Trebors
                              Persona Under Construction

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