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  • Redirected; Voyager

    <thread redirected, advised by ZD>

    I love B5.

    I used to be/still am a Trekker(as opposed to a Trekkie). Which is to say; I read the books but I don't dress up like Riker...

    Why are there so many people criticising(sp?) StarTrek just because B5 is so much better? I mean; when ST was initially produced/thought of, jms was in diapers... And I just want to add that jsm has never been anything else but full of praise of Gene Roddenberry.

    So why the rivalry? Don't we need every good SF-idea on TV?

    Just curious.

    TM.
    "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

  • #2
    Re: Redirected; Voyager

    Originally posted by Towelmaster
    <thread redirected, advised by ZD>

    Why are there so many people criticising(sp?) StarTrek just because B5 is so much better? I mean; when ST was initially produced/thought of, jms was in diapers... And I just want to add that jsm has never been anything else but full of praise of Gene Roddenberry.
    There are several 'reasons' and I'm afraid one of them can't help but sound childish as heck: They (Trek folk) started it. No, really. If you read the archives you'll see instances where JMS was boo'ed by Trekkies, where Paramount tried to intimidate directors and other crew who worked on B5, even once where Majel herself deliberately tied up the stage because JMS was to follow.

    Another reason is a certain resentment of Paramount rushing DS9 out the door so as to 'scoop' B5, including certain elements being deliberately paralelled.

    Another reason is that SF fans tend to be incredibly loyal and many saw fans turning to B5 as a betrayal.

    And, finally, I think...there's a little sadness. The original Trek took risks and chances for the sake of being good TV. Sure there were plenty of warts but it still explored real issues and had characters one could relate to and look up to at the same time. Later incarnations have been missing that, I think. Speaking only of my own tastes, I've simply never liked any of the post-TOS characters much.

    But...THEY started it!!!!!

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • #3
      So why the rivalry? Don't we need every good SF-idea on TV?

      Trek might have been a good idea, but from TNG onwards it`s implimentation left a lot to be desired.

      rivalry? no rivalry is necessary, the post TOS incarnations of Trek just never made the grade in my opinion (and to quote Dirty Harry; "opinions are like *ssh*les, everyone has one").
      "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

      Comment


      • #4
        <<(and to quote Dirty Harry; "opinions are like *ssh*les, everyone has one")>>

        And they all stink!
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

        Comment


        • #5
          Is everyone so against DS9 because of said loyalty? I mean, at the LEAST, the show is not that bad. To me, it is totally awesome. But I don't see how anyone can say it is flat out bad. Is it bad, or does it just not meet some people's tastes?
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            Is everyone so against DS9 because of said loyalty? I mean, at the LEAST, the show is not that bad. To me, it is totally awesome. But I don't see how anyone can say it is flat out bad. Is it bad, or does it just not meet some people's tastes?
            Below is only my, very humble, opinions.

            Having seen most of ST:TOS, the first season and last seasons of TNG and Voy, 1,5 seasons of Enterprise (and counting, although this is by far the worst ST (or almost ANY!) series so far) and only one (two?) season of DS9 (they stopped sending it here), I think DS9 is the best ST! Which admittedly does not say a lot, IMHO.

            I thought then that at least it was a little bit adult (and I mean that in the literal sense!) even when it was about Sisko's son.

            I am loyal to B5! Not in the way that I hate everything else because it isn't B5 (which I don't), and not in the way that I don't watch anything not B5 (which I certainly don't), but in the way that I always defend it, watch it, promote it and watever I am given the chance to do.

            That's the way I think it should be done!

            /IamS
            Interstellar Alliance - Sweden's largest Babylon 5-club
            http://www.babcon.org/

            Comment


            • #7
              I mean, at the LEAST, the show is not that bad.
              i would classify it as very bland sc-fi, it never stirrs the emotions, never gets the pulse going, it just spouts technobabble and not much else.

              i do enjoy other sc-fi shows, Farscape, Stargate and Red Dwarf for a start, so i`m not blinkered in thinking that B5 is the ONLY show around, just that the trek franchise is overrated.
              Last edited by jal; 08-31-2004, 04:54 AM.
              "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

              Comment


              • #8
                I could rant on specific examples of what I found disappointing on the few times I sampled TNG, DS9, Enterprise (I never tried Voyager), but in general terms it's the same others said in the other thread at the B5 forum ( http://jmsnews.net/forums/showthread...=&threadid=373 ) and here. The technobabble Deus ex Machina solutions to problems became formulaic.

                I gave them a chance, but they didn't grab me.
                I have still given a chance to TNG recently, since it's been shown on the cable channel Spike... still disappointing.

                To be honest I was viewing them with a critical eye from the beginning, but also not with the highest expectations, and still they didn't meet them. As I said several times around here: I've read way too much SF, with a preference for "hard" science fiction. That's a high standard for sciencefictional creativity to have, and a high standard for "real" fictional science that Trek just has been unable to meet.
                Treknobabble just puts me off terribly.

                I'm not a complete snob that won't give a chance to sci-fi shows, I'm just hard to convince sometimes because I am a scientist and I do judge the science aspect of the fiction. Getting the science right (as much as possible) can be hard for a TV show (even the Discovery Channel drops the ball sometimes!). But it can be done, B5 did it.

                I gave a chance to Farscape and I liked it, with only a few episodes needed to convince me of watching more, the fact that they deliberately avoided technobabble was a good choice, but sometimes carried to the extreme that they missed the chance to use technical jargon correctly to enchance the show (correct use is not technobabble in my book). The fictional science aspect of Farscape as a whole was underdeveloped, and some very bad examples of unbelievable (literally) "science" exist, but the stories and characters did interest me, so I "forgive" and gloss over the pseudo-science fiction on the show.

                Maybe it's also a matter of taste. If I could find the characters and stories of the Trek universe more appealing I might even forgive the treknobabble... but as it is I can't.

                I really liked the original series of Star Trek, and some movies with the original cast were great too (I have watched others, such as First Contact, just when shown free on cable, not very appealing). But I never became a dedicated fan of Star Trek, I haven't rewatched the original series in its entirety.
                And the commercial franchise aspect of the whole Trek phenomenon also puts me off...

                I am not a rival or detractor of Star Trek, nor of Trekkers, but I deplore the existence of the Trekkie fanaticism and their unquestioning loyalty to Trek. Someone pointed in a different thread that Trek fans are not fans of Science Fiction as a whole, true, and a real shame. There is much more to SF than Trek, I cringe at people that get their "SF" reading only on the Star Trek section and pass up on the opportunities to discover all the rest.
                Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yet, later, Majel seems to have changed her mind.

                  I suspect she was a bit taken back by some of the extreme Trek fans.

                  JMS posted:

                  16 Apr 1996

                  Re: the hiring of Walter Koenig and Majel Barrett...
                  in the former case, this is a very talented actor, who is also a friend, and has never been given the chance to showcase his real skills.
                  We provided that chance.
                  In the case of Majel, she wanted to appear in the show to help eliminate some of the division between B5 and ST fans.


                  jms
                  Wolf359
                  21 Sep 1995

                  Majel Barrett-Roddenberry and I got on quite well, as you note; we set aside any prior misunderstandings and got on with it.
                  We hung out, joked a lot together during autograph signings, had a late dinner (along with Michael O'Hare and Ed Wasser), and she told the audience at her presentations that she considered B5 the only other intelligent SF show now on the air, suggesting that fans support the show.

                  It was, overall, a very pleasant experience, problems with air conditioning (or the lack thereof) notwithstanding.
                  The attendees were great, polite and friendly and enthusiastic about the show...a most impressive experience. And the clips from upcoming year 3 episodes went over *very* well, including a scene with Londo and G'Kar that is likely my favorite of the series to date.

                  (Another scene with Londo and Lennier, btw, contains a small nod to the online fans of the show;
                  we can't and won't use story ideas, but there's been so much humor, reams and reams of it, every imaginable kind of joke, that I dropped one of these jokes into an episode ...
                  one that's come up at a lot of conventions and on the nets endlessly.
                  Just to acknowledge the fans in the only way I can.)

                  jms

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I found another post once, I think at LG, about Majel. It was long and JMS sounded angry from some fans' criticism of using her.
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I can't seem to recall the moment...so does anyone have any idea what the joke was that he used in the scene between Londo and Lennier?

                      CE
                      Anthony Flessas
                      Writer/Producer/Director,
                      SP Pictures


                      I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                        I could rant on specific examples of what I found disappointing on the few times I sampled TNG, DS9, Enterprise (I never tried Voyager), but in general terms it's the same others said in the other thread at the B5 forum ( http://jmsnews.net/forums/showthread...=&threadid=373 ) and here. The technobabble Deus ex Machina solutions to problems became formulaic.

                        I gave them a chance, but they didn't grab me.
                        I have still given a chance to TNG recently, since it's been shown on the cable channel Spike... still disappointing.

                        To be honest I was viewing them with a critical eye from the beginning, but also not with the highest expectations, and still they didn't meet them. As I said several times around here: I've read way too much SF, with a preference for "hard" science fiction. That's a high standard for sciencefictional creativity to have, and a high standard for "real" fictional science that Trek just has been unable to meet.
                        Treknobabble just puts me off terribly.

                        I'm not a complete snob that won't give a chance to sci-fi shows, I'm just hard to convince sometimes because I am a scientist and I do judge the science aspect of the fiction. Getting the science right (as much as possible) can be hard for a TV show (even the Discovery Channel drops the ball sometimes!). But it can be done, B5 did it.

                        Despite this, there are a number of ST:TNG gems out there, but you have to know what they are. The following episodes I would recommend, be it for concepts, plot, character development, or moral issues.

                        S2
                        The Measure of a Man


                        S3
                        The Survivors
                        Who Watches the Watchers
                        Yesterday's Enterprise


                        S4
                        Future Imperfect
                        The Wounded
                        Clues
                        Drumhead
                        Qpid
                        Redemption pt I


                        S5
                        Redemption pt II
                        Darmok
                        Cause and Effect
                        Conundrum
                        Disaster
                        The Inner Light


                        S6
                        Relics
                        Chain of Command I & II
                        Tapestry


                        S7
                        Parallels
                        The Pegasus
                        Thine Own Self
                        Last edited by NotKosh; 09-03-2004, 11:38 AM.
                        "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Despite this, there are a number of ST:TNG gems out there, but you have to know what they are. The following stories I would recommend, be it for writing, character development, or moral issues.

                          S2
                          The Measure of a Man
                          Decent, but not rewatchable.


                          S3
                          The Survivors
                          Eh.

                          Who Watches the Watchers
                          The message: Don't make a law prohibiting contact with younger races and then spy on them.

                          Yesterday's Enterprise
                          I am a big fan of parallel/alternate history. Good one.

                          S4
                          Future Imperfect
                          I think they wrote this one as they went along. Hey, at least it had Andreas.

                          The Wounded
                          One of my all time favorites, the first to feature in a prime role one of my all time favorite characters.

                          Clues
                          ::Thumbs down with a farting sound::

                          Drumhead
                          Overly dramatic and the theme was used much better in DS9's Inquisition.

                          Qpid
                          We all love Robin Hood. About the only thing I really LIKED about this one was Worf's "I am NOT a merry man!" Oh, and when he broke Geordi's mandolin.

                          Redemption pt I
                          S5
                          Redemption pt II
                          Good story, but in the end we knew it would all go back to normal, so what was the point?

                          Darmok
                          Shaka, when the walls fell! I liked this one.

                          Cause and Effect
                          Garbage. Braga garbage at that.

                          Conundrum
                          Pretty cool the first time I watched it.

                          Disaster
                          This was something different, wasn't it? I liked the Geordi/Beverly scenes the most.

                          The Inner Light
                          If somebody says they don't like this episode, they have a mental illness. That, or they're in denial.

                          S6
                          Relics
                          Yeeeeeeah...I have to pass on this ep. Sure, it had Mr. Scott, but the mere existence of a Dyson Sphere was too fake for me.

                          Chain of Command I & II
                          I shit you not, I have seen these eps over fifty times. I thought I'd never see anything better. Well, now I think I like Intersections in Real Time better.

                          A funny story on this...when I first saw Part I, which was when it first aired, I was at my aunt's house during a quarterly family dinner, where she'd cook for all the birthdays in that quarter. Well, my cousin's latest husband, who turned out to be a great guy (she divorced him in less than a year, figures) was a big Trek fan. My aunt had pulled out the TV from the closet because me and him didn't want to miss TNG. So we are watching it and at one moment, something big happened in Part I, me and my aunt's husband went "HOLY SHIT!" at the same time. All fifty people in the house stopped and looked at us. It was funny.

                          Tapestry
                          Another Q ep. I wasn't big on this one.


                          S7
                          Parallels
                          Although, as I mentioned, I am a fan of parallel stuff, this came off as comical and I couldn't take it seriously. The big beard Riker!

                          The Pegasus
                          Men on Trek: HATED IT!

                          Thine Own Self
                          I didn't like it. It just seemed...pointless. Probably a message about xenophobia in there somewhere.
                          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Despite this, there are a number of ST:TNG gems out there
                            but in this case gems are in the eyes of the beholder, where you see diamonds, i see small lumps of coal.
                            "The trouble with being a cynic is that you eventually get labelled as a highly reliable fortune-teller"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jal
                              but in this case gems are in the eyes of the beholder, where you see diamonds, i see small lumps of coal.
                              When you compare them to the rest of the TNG eps, they are gems! I didn't list why I nominated all. Most are obvious for their plot/writing/issues. Some just for the a certain aspect. The doud in The Survivors, The Dyson Sphere in relics, etc. Do note that in the 1st two season, I only listed 1 ep.
                              Last edited by NotKosh; 09-03-2004, 11:02 PM.
                              "I am not a number! I am a free man!"

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