Fans of Other Things vs. B5 Fans

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Rant Warning.

So, I went into my old stomping grounds where I used to hang out talking about Firefly/Serenity in their flash chat today. And yes, I am a Firefly fan, so I don't mean to demean anyone who likes the show. But I am a B5 fan first, so I would categorize myself as such a person.

Anyway, I try to start a discussion about direct to dvd marketing, and how B5 could really change the landscape of sci-fi (again) if it is successsful. Which, I haven't heard too many people discuss around here even. This is a really big thing we have going. Depending on how this does, and the stargate movies do..we could see a lot happening in sci-fi in general in the coming years..but that's another topic for another time.

Responses: B5 sucks. It's boring. Yeah..I couldn't get interested in it. I watched part of the first season, didn't hook me.

These are the same people who wanted Serenity given a chance to pay off because it didn't hook America in its 13 episodes. I really don't get it.

Well, I wasn't talking about the show, I was talking about direct to dvd and how dvd sales effect things..which should apply in a HUGE way to Firefly. I stated that they made a blunder making a theatrical movie out of Serenity, which subsiquently has done very well on DVD just like its predecessor show, and that they should have gone the direct to DVD route, but that is thinking too far out of the box for the producers of the show at the time. B5 might pave the way for a sequel in this to happen...

It's exciting stuff, if they thought about it. But I was met with utter disinterest. And the chat degraded into pardon the language dick and fart mentality (literally, I could copy and paste people talking about when they "take craps", but I'd rather not bring names into this), ignoring my comments completely which caused me to then remember why I didn't frequent that message board/site anymore. I mean...these people could band together and DEMAND straight to DVD Serenity sequels, and have a same effect like getting that move made to begin with, IF B5 is successful. People are so shortsighted it amazes me.

I've been a fanboy of a few things over the years, comics, smashing pumpkins, firefly, to name a few. And I've noticed the quality of discussions/people in those groups were broken down into bickering about pointless things, flaming, the aforementioned dick and fart mentality, just a less intelligent and more ADD crowd. I haven't found that with Babylon 5 fans at all.

Maybe it's the nature of the fact that the show is a 5 year story, and we have to read into it like it's literature and have patience for the payoff of the show to enjoy it that brings a higher quality fanbase? I don't know the reasons...but I definitely do notice the higher quality of Babylon 5 fans in general as opposed to other media "fanboys".

It really makes me sad for other media, and lose interest in it. Then again, it also may be the reason that we endure, and looking at their once active forum, I don't see much going on.

/rant

[Jan]

It really makes me sad for other media, and lose interest in it. Then again, it also may be the reason that we endure, and looking at their once active forum, I don't see much going on.

I don't understand why disagreement these days seems to have to become adversarial either. And you're probably right, that a direct to DVD Firefly movie could have been just the thing and might have spawned many a sequal. Timing, though, is everything and Firefly happened just a few years too early.

Remember...until recently, *very* recently, direct to DVD was synonymous with 'pretty much crap but it may sell enough so making won't be a total loss'. It's very much an emerging market still. Same for print on demand, for that matter. B5 and JMS seem to do a lot of the R&D for other shows to follow.

As for the Firefly fans vs B5 fans...I think you may just be trying to mix oil and water. I like Firefly and Buffy, don't get me wrong. But when people start going off on how JMS doesn't write good dialogue and Joss Whedon does, all I can do is shake my head because apparently those people don't know how to distinguish dialogue from banter. Both are spoken, but there the similarity ends. So when you have trouble communicating, it may just be that they have a stunted vocabulary.

For me, the Joss shows are highly entertaining...once. Whereas B5 rewards multiple viewings and close attention being paid.

All that said about the joys of direct to DVD, though...oh how I'd love to see B5 on the big screen someday!

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I don't understand why disagreement these days seems to have to become adversarial either. And you're probably right, that a direct to DVD Firefly movie could have been just the thing and might have spawned many a sequal. Timing, though, is everything and Firefly happened just a few years too early.

I don't mean to be adversarial, I just noticed that forums other than here and rastb5m seem to all have that same kind of mentality. I'm a *sci-fi* fan, so I like all of these things...I just can't relate to the community in those parts because of the way they act.

Remember...until recently, *very* recently, direct to DVD was synonymous with 'pretty much crap but it may sell enough so making won't be a total loss'. It's very much an emerging market still. Same for print on demand, for that matter. B5 and JMS seem to do a lot of the R&D for other shows to follow.

Yes, which is why Firefly fans should be excited. The whole reason there's hype behind that show is because it did well on DVD. Any thinking person should correlate that if TLT and the Stargate movies work out well..it means excitement for some of the other niche sci-fi shows.

As for the Firefly fans vs B5 fans...I think you may just be trying to mix oil and water. I like Firefly and Buffy, don't get me wrong. But when people start going off on how JMS doesn't write good dialogue and Joss Whedon does, all I can do is shake my head because apparently those people don't know how to distinguish dialogue from banter. Both are spoken, but there the similarity ends. So when you have trouble communicating, it may just be that they have a stunted vocabulary.

For me, the Joss shows are highly entertaining...once. Whereas B5 rewards multiple viewings and close attention being paid.
[/qoute]

Dead on. Kevin Smith and Joss Whedon are very similiar in that regard. And I love to watch both of their works, but I agree about repeat viewership.

[qoute]All that said about the joys of direct to DVD, though...oh how I'd love to see B5 on the big screen someday!

If the format works, I think they're more likely to stick to direct to DVD. The truth is, because of all the media availibility out there, people *are* going to movies less and less. Serenity was the last, best hope in terms of niche sci-fi shows going to the big screen, it failed. In the year of TLT, executives tried something greater...our last, best hope...for sci-fi to exist at all.

Movies aren't working...the truth is, tv is too expensive. Why air a show that gets you the same rating as say...ECW and has twice the expense? It means you're making half the profit. That's why sci-fi's getting rid of its shows like SG1, Farscape, BSG...they don't do *poorly*, but don't do great either. And if people will watch "Ghost Hunters" or "ECW" just as much, why produce something a lot more expensive?

DVD offers something different. It's not up against a time slot where it can be easily replaced and the same commercials present for the same budget. They're watchable any time, and that's where we have a competitive advantage.

I really think that TLT is MUCH bigger than just B5, and I honestly believe sales are going to be out of control for it. I think there's going to be a lot of changes in media in the years to come because of it as well. I just hope JMS will pat himself on the back and give himself some credit when it happens. That man innovated so much in terms of storytelling, and he's way too humble about it.

But..I very much digressed from my bitter disappointment over media fandom. I'm still disappointed.

[Karachi Vyce]

God, do I HATE Whedon fanboys.

Don't get me wrong. I was a big Buffy and Angel fan, and I think Whedon's got talent. But there are Whedon fanboys who will sit there and argue with you that he's the most brilliant genre creator / writer EVAR. I remember arguing with some Whedon fanboys who claimed that the musical episode of Buffy was one of the greatest episodes in ALL OF TELEVISION, and were not being ironic, they literally believed that way. In particular, I remember, back in the day, fighting with Whedon fanboys who were claiming that Serenity was a better show than Farscape.

WRONG.

I don't know what it is about Whedon's hardcore fans, but they're incredibly annoying with their blind-Homer adulation of his work.

[jal]

God, do I HATE Whedon fanboys.

Don't get me wrong. I was a big Buffy and Angel fan, and I think Whedon's got talent. But there are Whedon fanboys who will sit there and argue with you that he's the most brilliant genre creator / writer EVAR. I remember arguing with some Whedon fanboys who claimed that the musical episode of Buffy was one of the greatest episodes in ALL OF TELEVISION, and were not being ironic, they literally believed that way. In particular, I remember, back in the day, fighting with Whedon fanboys who were claiming that Serenity was a better show than Farscape.

WRONG.

I don't know what it is about Whedon's hardcore fans, but they're incredibly annoying with their blind-Homer adulation of his work.

the Buffy musical episode was damned good for sure but never the greatest.

i really hated Firefly the series but loved the movie (mainly because they left out a lot of the cringingly hic wild west look/theme to it and made it a bit more serious).

on a seperate note; where/what is the rastb5m Forum?

[WorkerCaste]

Just for my two cents -- it doesn't seem as much about the show/person, it's more about the medium. The internet seems to bring out the best and the worst in people. This is the only discussion group I've stayed with for any length of time. I've checked out some different ones (not all SF related) and usually just get annoyed and leave. While there have been discussions here that I thought were annoying (and I'm sure I've annoyed some people ) the overall tone of the discussions is great. I don't know why that's true here, but that's the way it seems to me.

[KoshN]

on a seperate note; where/what is the rastb5m Forum?

rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated

It can be accessed, for example, on your ISP's News Server (news.ISP Name.com or net) via Outlook Express, or on Google Groups (more cumbersome)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/topics?hl=en

[Dr Maturin]

In particular, I remember, back in the day, fighting with Whedon fanboys who were claiming that Serenity was a better show than Farscape.

WRONG.

You mean Firefly? Well, it is. Farscape was GARBAGE.

[KoshN]

You mean Firefly? Well, it is. Farscape was GARBAGE.

Oh don't start. This kind of thing tends to take on the nature of a Green/Purple fight, except that all the freakin' colors of the rainbow are represented.

[Dr Maturin]

But when the muppets are wearing purple and the space cowboys are wearing green...I think we know the winners of that one.

[Jan]

You mean Firefly? Well, it is. Farscape was GARBAGE.

An excellent example of what Jon was saying. It seems difficult for people to simply say that they didn't care for something, instead they have to denounce it utterly.

I'll admit that I wasn't able to get past the muppets far enough to enjoy the show back in the day but as time has passed, the episodes I've seen have been good and I'm much more able to accept the aliens.

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

An excellent example of what Jon was saying. It seems difficult for people to simply say that they didn't care for something, instead they have to denounce it utterly.

I'll admit that I wasn't able to get past the muppets far enough to enjoy the show back in the day but as time has passed, the episodes I've seen have been good and I'm much more able to accept the aliens.

Jan

Yup, except what almost started here was at least in complete sentences.

I liked farscape. It really got whacky and creative as it went along. I think the first season was a bit slow, but then, that's understandable. The actual continuing plot went really weird places, and you never knew what to expect from the story, which was kind of the fun part of it. As far as my favorite shows rankings go (having watched allf of farscape), it ranks about:

1. Babylon 5
2. Arrested Development
3. Firefly
4. Farscape
5. Deep Space Nine

In case my taste means anything to ya Jan

If you lived near me, I'd let you borrow my dvd set lol.

I think even in our petty arguments we still end up better than the best of days over on that site though. Which is sad.

[babylonlurker]

Yup, except what almost started here was at least in complete sentences.

As far as my favorite shows rankings go (having watched allf of farscape), it ranks about:

1. Babylon 5
2. Arrested Development
3. Firefly
4. Farscape
5. Deep Space Nine

I there is something I do not like , it is fanaticism, religious or otherwise. What you describe from the Firefly forum look exactly like that to me.

Also, with B5 you *have* to think abut it - life , the universe, everything (42)

Could be that B5 requires one thing that is in short supply : Patience.

Of the 5 shows you list , I have seen only B5 and DS9 , and never heard of #2 (sorry about that) ordered Firefly/serenity, so will watch it given the time,then decide how I like it.

Have seen a few eps of Farscape, but it did not catch me

Of all scifi/fantasy I *have seen* I rate Babylon 5 the highest, no doubt. Others can be good or even very good, it is just that for me B5 has set the bar very high. I have seen Buffy and Angel and liked them, but they don't knock the socks off, as B5 did.

In fact, I did not like "The Gathering" when I first saw it, and I still consider it under par, when it comes to B5. When it started on TV I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt, and was blown away.

Still have a lot to watch/listen to/read, but 48 hours a day is not enough

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I there is something I do not like , it is fanaticism, religious or otherwise. What you describe from the Firefly forum look exactly like that to me.

Also, with B5 you *have* to think abut it - life , the universe, everything (42)

Could be that B5 requires one thing that is in short supply : Patience.

Of the 5 shows you list , I have seen only B5 and DS9 , and never heard of #2 (sorry about that) ordered Firefly/serenity, so will watch it given the time,then decide how I like it.

Have seen a few eps of Farscape, but it did not catch me

Of all scifi/fantasy I *have seen* I rate Babylon 5 the highest, no doubt. Others can be good or even very good, it is just that for me B5 has set the bar very high. I have seen Buffy and Angel and liked them, but they don't knock the socks off, as B5 did.

In fact, I did not like "The Gathering" when I first saw it, and I still consider it under par, when it comes to B5. When it started on TV I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt, and was blown away.

Still have a lot to watch/listen to/read, but 48 hours a day is not enough

Arrested Development was a 3 season (cancelled early in the 3rd) comedy show on Fox that had a background plot that kept getting thicker and thicker, whackier and whackier until it culminated quickly in the 3rd season.

So, like bablyon 5..if you just catch an episode, it's okay...but if you watch the whole thing you see that a quick quip in the first episode becomes a very large joke in the last. It's not sci-fi, but I can compare it to B5 in that respect. It's very very well written, and a lot of the humor is too intelligent for most audiences, so Fox killed it. Even the title "Arrested Development" has multiple meanings, which I won't state because it'll spoil.

And yes, the problem for both those shows, in fact, all of the shows that I've listed in my top 5, is that patience has to be there for it to pay off. Not as much in Firefly/DS9, but still to some degree.

[Karachi Vyce]

You mean Firefly? Well, it is. Farscape was GARBAGE.

Don't fucking start that shit again, Tommy.