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  • #31
    another point for audiobooks is that i will listen to books i would not have every picked up in print form, and this has exposed me to some authors i woul dnever have encountered with both good and bad experiances.
    i found Linda Fairstien this way and her work is most enjoyable but would never have picked her up in a books store

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Lunan View Post
      another point for audiobooks is that i will listen to books i would not have every picked up in print form, and this has exposed me to some authors i woul dnever have encountered with both good and bad experiances.
      i found Linda Fairstien this way and her work is most enjoyable but would never have picked her up in a books store
      Oh, yeah. I think I've said it before in this forum, but given my limited time for just sitting and reading, when I get a chance to do that I usually fall back on my favorite genre, SF. When listening, where I'm going through 3 books a month, I'm all over the place. Non-fiction, historical fiction, mystery, etc.
      "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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      • #33
        Originally posted by WorkerCaste View Post
        Welcome Rock-Knock. Have you ever listened to George Guidall, Simon Prebble, Patrick Tull or Frank Muelller?
        I pretty much dislike all of them. At least Guidall and Mueller. I don't see what people see in them.

        I'm currently going through Mario Puzo's "The Godfather". It's a "Brilliance Audio" production, and I had never heard of the company before, but apparently they use a full cast for it, which means that you have a basic narrator for the regular portions of the book, and each character has their own actor assigned to them to provide the dialogue. It's actually pretty fun. The guy portraying Tom Hagen actually does a pretty fair Robert Duvall impression.

        I need to go through Order of the Phoenix before the movie comes out later this year. Jim Dale is really awesome, it's to the point where I don't even bother reading the Potter books anymore, I just listen to Dale's audio.
        "I don't find myself in the same luxury as you. You grew up in freedom, and you can spit on freedom, because you don't know what it is not to have freedom." ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Karachi Vyce View Post
          I pretty much dislike all of them. At least Guidall and Mueller. I don't see what people see in them.

          I'm currently going through Mario Puzo's "The Godfather". It's a "Brilliance Audio" production, and I had never heard of the company before, but apparently they use a full cast for it, which means that you have a basic narrator for the regular portions of the book, and each character has their own actor assigned to them to provide the dialogue. It's actually pretty fun. The guy portraying Tom Hagen actually does a pretty fair Robert Duvall impression.

          I need to go through Order of the Phoenix before the movie comes out later this year. Jim Dale is really awesome, it's to the point where I don't even bother reading the Potter books anymore, I just listen to Dale's audio.
          For me, I don't like the full cast presentations as well. Couldn't really tell you why -- just a personal preference kind of thing. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think Brilliance does only full cast. I'm pretty sure they do a mix. At the very least, I know I've listed to some books from them. I just began the Potter series from the first book on audio in preparation for Book 7. It's been a long time since I read Book 1, so it's a lot of fun, and I really do like Jim Dale a lot!
          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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          • #35
            I think a lot depends on what you think the critical elements of "reading" are. Holding the book and feeling the pages....
            You could not be more wrong. And my criteria for reading is this....A piece of paper has markings on it that you recognise as letters, collected into words and sentences. Deciphering these opens your imagination to the author's ideas directly, right into you mind.

            I don't see how experiencing a book on audio makes the writing less of a gateway into another person's imagination. Their imagination lies in the story and the characters.
            This is only true upto a certian point. My thought is that you ARE NOT experiencing their imagination first hand, it is NOT your interpretation their imagination hitting you. It is your interpretation of the the interpretation of the person (and how they fell about) reading the book out that you are experiencing.


            Writers do not expect you to experience the pages, they expect you to experience the words. Page composition varies by the format of the book. The writer generally has no idea what the pages will look like.....
            You are taking me way too literally here. Yes of course paper varies from book to book, publisher to publisher. So, clearly, that is not what I meant. To my mind, the magic of a book's pages is that yu just do not know what you will find on the next one. There is real magic in having a genuine 'page turner' of a book. There is real magic in a story that is (even though I hate the actual word...) 'unputdownable'. Each book is awhole new world, with the magic contained within it pages.

            The expectation of turning each page is replaced with the expectation of what will come next, and in many respects audio books do better at ensuring that the anticipation and author's intent are fully realized. How often, when reading a book, are you so intent on learning an outcome that you begin to skim in order to get to the "good part." Perhaps you don't do that, but most of the readers I know do it to some extent.
            That is a good point, yes you are correct, even I have done it too, though not so much now

            By your argument, a blind person can never truly experience books. Also, you might want to consider that "lazy" is generally considered an insulting term.
            The vision impaired are people operating under an entirely different set of circumstances. They are people who have no choice but to find alternative methods. I would never call a blind person lazy.

            It is the listening to someone else read a story out to you, rather than reading - see my defnition above - it for yourself (...merely for sake of convenience) is what I feel has an edge of laziness about it.


            For the record, I read with both my eyes and my ears. I let the tool suit the job. If I am doing something that requires hands but not intellect, audio is a wonderful choice. If I am looking to sit in the sun and do nothing, I'll pick up paper. Ultimately I think they are co-equal and there is no truly wrong choice.
            Here, you are making my previous point for me. To read a book in the classic sense, requires, even by your own words, an act of intellect. So then it is not the same to just listen to a story. So by your own argument, they connot be co-equal. Whether they are the right choice for an idividual is another matter.


            I hope I have made myself a bit clearer.


            Daron W.
            http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
            Yes, I still collect Laserdiscs!!
            47" Phillips 1080p 46" Samsung 1080p Toshiba HD-30E (2 both Multi Region) PS3-80G 120G BR Multi-Region Maidstone MD-BR-2102 Sky-HD Freesat-HD Pioneer DVL-909 CLD-D925 CLD-2950 (AC3) CLD-D515 CLD S315 Yamaha ADP-1 Meridian 519 Pioneer 609 (DD/DTS) x 2 Speakers & subs Jammo M/S Pioneer Technics Sony Eltax Akai Aiwa

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            • #36
              You could not be more wrong. And my criteria for reading is this....A piece of paper has markings on it that you recognise as letters, collected into words and sentences. Deciphering these opens your imagination to the author's ideas directly, right into you mind.
              There's just as much "deciphering" going on in the spoken word as there is the written, and it's just as possible to glazed-eye-read through a book as it is to let a voice drone on and on.

              Triggering imagination is a brain function, not an eye function, and it a choice of the reader/listener/viewer, the receptor of the experience.

              True that an audio book introduces a middleman in most cases, but books usually get a lot of editorial fingerprints on them anyhow. You can argue it's easier to let the narrator's imagination and his voice inflections carry the tale, but that's a reflection of the listener, not the narrator. Besides, any serious reader always invents the "voice" in their head anyway, or copies (I seriously will never get that damn Bastion kid out of my head. Never.)

              I'm a book man myself, always will be (as Giles once said "Books smell", and I find it easy enough to disconnect without something weighty in my hands), likely will never touch an audio book, but I wouldn't rag on those that do. They just might be wired differently.
              Last edited by Radhil; 05-03-2007, 04:51 PM.
              Radhil Trebors
              Persona Under Construction

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              • #37
                Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                You could not be more wrong. And my criteria for reading is this....A piece of paper has markings on it that you recognise as letters, collected into words and sentences. Deciphering these opens your imagination to the author's ideas directly, right into you mind.

                This is only true upto a certian point. My thought is that you ARE NOT experiencing their imagination first hand, it is NOT your interpretation their imagination hitting you. It is your interpretation of the the interpretation of the person (and how they fell about) reading the book out that you are experiencing.
                Perhaps to you I could not be more wrong, but you have offered no objective proof that I am wrong at all. An audio track has waves at certain frequencies, pitches, etc. that you recognise as phonetic syllables collected into words and sentences. Deciphering these words and sentences opens your imagination to the author's ideas directly, right into your mind. The author creates the story in his or her mind, and you experience the story in your own mind. In between the two minds is medium. Now, I can certainly accept that for any given individual the experience can work better one way rather than another, but that doesn't invalidate a medium in general.

                As far as the fact that someone else's interpretation is in the middle, yes, that's true to a certain degree. However, if the words are unchanged (unabridged being all that I listen too) there is little room to move the writer's intent. About the only place where this can enter is in dialog. All narration, 3rd person omniscient passages, descriptive passages, etc. are what they are. Narrators read these in a neutral voice. In dialog, a narrator can inject emotion, and it is possible that this is not an emotion intended by the author, however this is actually pretty difficult since part of an author's job is to instruct the reader what emotions are in play. This is done through word choice, use of adverbs, etc. "Damn you all to hell!" conveys the emotion, or "No thank you.", he said with a sneer. If a narrator does not follow these author instructions, he or she will not have much of a career. It what's known as a bad narrator. Add to this the fact that nonfiction works don't even usually have dialog.

                You are taking me way too literally here. Yes of course paper varies from book to book, publisher to publisher. So, clearly, that is not what I meant. To my mind, the magic of a book's pages is that yu just do not know what you will find on the next one. There is real magic in having a genuine 'page turner' of a book. There is real magic in a story that is (even though I hate the actual word...) 'unputdownable'. Each book is awhole new world, with the magic contained within it pages.
                I took you literally because they were literal statements. You connected the physical aspects of the book to the authors imagination. You didn't just say that you liked holding a book, you presented the feel of the book as a necessary component. Now, talk about taking something literally. When a book is described as a 'page turner', that is a figure of speech that let's you know that the story is so well crafted that you can't wait to find out what happens next -- no literal pages required. All your description above about the magic of books, which sentiment I heartily endorse BTW, does not mention the physical book.

                The vision impaired are people operating under an entirely different set of circumstances. They are people who have no choice but to find alternative methods. I would never call a blind person lazy.

                It is the listening to someone else read a story out to you, rather than reading - see my defnition above - it for yourself (...merely for sake of convenience) is what I feel has an edge of laziness about it.
                See, now, here's where I think the discussion goes off the rails. I tried before to gently point out that maybe you should consider your word choice more carefully. Let me state this outright. Coming into a discussion among people who obviously enjoy listening to audiobooks and calling them lazy, especially for a second time, is rude. There is no way around that. I am insulted by that and I don't consider myself particularly thin skinned. You have called me, and at least a dozen close acquaintences and family members, lazy -- twice!

                Here, you are making my previous point for me. To read a book in the classic sense, requires, even by your own words, an act of intellect. So then it is not the same to just listen to a story. So by your own argument, they connot be co-equal. Whether they are the right choice for an idividual is another matter.
                Um, yeah, I said experiencing a book requires intellect -- but not hands. How exactly is this making your argument? My whole post was describing it as an intellectual activity not a physical one. My statement in no way supports your proposition that you must physically interact with a book in order to truly read. Not even close.

                Edit: After I posted this I read your response, Radhil, and I think you're right on the money. I'm not sure about the wired differntly bit, though. I just see advantages to both mediums, and I can tell you that I have a library in my home, floor-to-ceiling shelves, and yes, I like the smell of books when I sit in that room. In all my arguments I'm not saying that the physical presence of a book isn't a good thing. I'm just saying it's a good thing that can be offset by the good things of audiobooks and that one is not inferior to the other. Just different.
                Last edited by WorkerCaste; 05-04-2007, 05:37 AM. Reason: Additional Thoughts
                "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                • #38
                  See, now, here's where I think the discussion goes off the rails. I tried before to gently point out that maybe you should consider your word choice more carefully. Let me state this outright. Coming into a discussion among people who obviously enjoy listening to audiobooks and calling them lazy, especially for a second time, is rude. There is no way around that. I am insulted by that and I don't consider myself particularly thin skinned. You have called me, and at least a dozen close acquaintences and family members, lazy -- twice!
                  Never my intention. If you or your family/friends are offended then I most honesty appologise.

                  It is clear that we see things quite differently regarding audiobooks. I have tried them and did not like them, you've tried them and do.

                  Shall we leave it there?
                  http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
                  Yes, I still collect Laserdiscs!!
                  47" Phillips 1080p 46" Samsung 1080p Toshiba HD-30E (2 both Multi Region) PS3-80G 120G BR Multi-Region Maidstone MD-BR-2102 Sky-HD Freesat-HD Pioneer DVL-909 CLD-D925 CLD-2950 (AC3) CLD-D515 CLD S315 Yamaha ADP-1 Meridian 519 Pioneer 609 (DD/DTS) x 2 Speakers & subs Jammo M/S Pioneer Technics Sony Eltax Akai Aiwa

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by LightStorm View Post
                    Never my intention. If you or your family/friends are offended then I most honesty appologise.

                    It is clear that we see things quite differently regarding audiobooks. I have tried them and did not like them, you've tried them and do.

                    Shall we leave it there?
                    Fair enough. Apology accepted.
                    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                    • #40
                      i have a nice long drive coming up, can't decide what to listen to
                      The Machiavelli Covenant by Allen Folsom
                      Sassinak by Anne McCaffrey & Elizabeth Moon
                      or
                      The Bone Vault by Linda Fairstein

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                      • #41
                        well i have just finished listening to the empire of man series by david weber and john ringo (march upcountry, march to the sea, march to the stars, we few)
                        all in all i'll give it a 3 out of 5 stars
                        the first book march upcountry a 4

                        not bad at all, but space opera in a realativly forumlaic pattern

                        i've noticed a patern in weber books to use very similar tech over and over(not that i object too strongly, its actully good science, and the 1 time i felt like doing the math to the figures were correct, kind of like a scifi tom clancy)
                        [ok the good science bit does get wobbly when we start talking about the ftl, but since humans are still stuck on earth and have yet to learn everything this is an area i can live with]

                        the 1 odd part of listening to them is that they were read by stephen rudniki, who i first heard reading parts of the ender's game series, and to me is is the voice of orson card(silly i know as readers often read many diffrent things and many diffrent genres, but there you go, he is THE voice of ender's game to me)

                        and next on my list i intend to go back an listen to all the harry potter books again in a sort of prep for the 7th and final book(anybets as to weather the story will pop up before the offical release date? be careful the halfblood prince was spoiled before but wasn't avalible in audio till the release)

                        anyway i thoght i'd drop an update down if anyone is interested, see if we can get a new conversation going

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                        • #42
                          I don't recall listening to Stephen Rudniki, but I have had that experience before. One of the strongest associations I have is with Simon Preble and Dick Francis. Simon narrates the majority of Dick Fancis' books, so when I hear the melodious tones of Simon, I often think "Oh, is this Dick Francis?" Of course, the interesting thing there is that Fancis' books aren't even a series, so it's not the same characters or anything.

                          I've actually been doing the Harry Potter thing for a couple of months, now. I go through about 3 average-sized books a month, so I was trying to time it such that I'd finish up the six just before the seventh came out. I'm being very careful not to be spoiled on that one even though I hear some of the plot is out there. I'm somewhat ahead of schedule, so I'll have to insert another book between the sixth and seventh Potters. Oh, well. I'm thinking I want to do something different, so I'm considering perhaps "The Killer Angels" or something along those lines.
                          "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                          • #43
                            i haven't had that experiance with simon prebble since about half the francis books i have are read by tony briton and half by prebble (i understand that each has read about 30 or so of his books, its what you get your hands on) but the first time i heard prebble was on a couple of jeffrey archer books

                            i have been taking a look at a few of the "spoilers" for book 7, and let me tell you. the plot and details ARE NOT "out there"
                            security on this book is better then on president fuckup(bush)

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                            • #44
                              Ok, so I finished "Half Blood Prince" and had to get serious about picking my next book. Once I got serious I decided to go fluff. I got "High Five" by Janet Evanovich. It's part of a series featuring Stephanie Plum, New Jersey ex-lingerie wholesaler turned bounty hunter. The books are short and good for a laugh. The core mystery is usually well done although not mind bending. C. J. Critt is the narrator and she does a great job with the somewhat over-the-top characters. They tend to be those books that make people look at you strangely, like when you're mowing the lawn and suddenly start laughing out load.
                              "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                              • #45
                                I've porbably said this elsehwre(maybe even in this thread) but can I recommend listening to Steven Briggs reading of the Terry PRatchett books?
                                Phaze
                                on the "I've met Steven and he's a wonderful person and a fellow civil servant" ID
                                "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

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