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What's WRONG with these people?!?!

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  • #31
    "No officer, I had no clue that it was illegal..."
    (sorry about that *eg*)

    PeAcE
    greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by LessonInMachismo
      I wouldn't care. If top secret information is apparently fair game, then so are religious men in public view. Don't expect anybody to know the tenets of every single religion in the nation, much less the world. I, for one, had no clue about the photograph thing.
      Sure, you can't know every tenet of every religion, but in all likelihood most of the press responders were local newspeople (even national feeds generally pick up off local correspondants/reporters) who would certainly be aware of the the Amish beliefs. Also, I can't imagine that the press wouldn't try to get some on-camera images of shock and horror as they do with all the witnesses, neighbors, parents, students, etc. for all such events. The first time you try to get an Amish reaction on camera, you would become aware of their beliefs. Beyond that, the police and officials in that area are certainly aware, too. These weren't Amish people in the middle of LA -- they were Amish people on their own lands. You go into that area, and you should know. My parents went into the area as tourists years ago and they were informed. All that being said, I can't buy that's it's ignorance.

      Once you rule out ignorance, I think the press should care and respect the beliefs of those people, especially when violating them serves no public interest. Their images only satisfy a morbid curiousity. How does that balance against their rights to their beliefs?

      As for Towelmaster's comment about caring meaning there was something "seriously wrong with them" I would point out that people often cling harder to their beliefs when tragedy strikes. It's how most gain what comfort they can in an uncontrollable situation. It's not a matter of them not wanting their pictures taken because it never comes out good (with which I could also sympathize ), it's a matter of deeply held beliefs. I haven't heard that the Amish have made any complaints. They likely don't even know. Long lenses and grief-stricken subjects wouldn't make for a lot of awareness. Also, it's not like they'd see their images on TV or the web. I don't know how they feel about newspapers, but I bet the local papers didn't include those images if the Amish do subscribe.

      It would not cost us, the news consuming public, a single thing to respect their wishes.
      Last edited by WorkerCaste; 10-03-2006, 10:31 AM. Reason: Corrected a typo
      "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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      • #33
        Btw: Did they actually complain about it? Or is this one of those things that are brought up by other people? Just askin'.
        No, Towelmaster, they didn't complain about it. How would they even know they'd been on tv? They don't have tvs in their home. I just thought it was culturally insensitive. Journalists who travel the world are supposed to know such things, like knowing about not eating with your left hand in Muslim countries (at least I hope that's the correct hand -- if not, apologies in advance for the faux pas).
        Last edited by AmyG; 10-03-2006, 08:15 PM.

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        • #34
          Yeah, we don't want to send throngs of enraged people into the streets burning US and Israeli flags chanting "DURKA DURKA RIGHT HAND!"

          It's funny how the USA is the only country where people aren't expected to follow supposed cultural standards. It's because we don't care, because not caring is normal.

          Maybe the journalists thought they were Quakers...

          Look at this: me defending journalists. Next, I will be sticking up for lawyers.
          Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by AmyG
            No, Towelmaster, they didn't complain about it. How would they even know they'd been on tv? They don't have tvs in their home. I just thought it was culturally insensitive. Journalists who travel the world are supposed to know such things, like knowing about not eating with your left hand in Muslim countries (at least I hope that's the correct hand -- if not, apologies in advance for the faux pas).
            No tv's, of course. Point taken. But perhaps journalists sometimes have the right to decide for themselves whether they will tape something or not?

            This all does not change my impression though : I think these people would normally be too struck down to think about such relatively trivial matters as a tv-camera. They have just lost 5 girls.
            "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Towelmaster
              No tv's, of course. Point taken. But perhaps journalists sometimes have the right to decide for themselves whether they will tape something or not?

              This all does not change my impression though : I think these people would normally be too struck down to think about such relatively trivial matters as a tv-camera. They have just lost 5 girls.
              You and me, it's a trivial matter. Saying it's trivial for them is marginalizing their beliefs. I don't understand it, but it is part of who they are. And, again, how does violating their beleifs benefit the public good?
              "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Towelmaster
                This all does not change my impression though : I think these people would normally be too struck down to think about such relatively trivial matters as a tv-camera. They have just lost 5 girls.
                I don't think that it matters whether or not they were too upset, grief-stricken, etc., to notice that their religious beliefs had been compromised. The point is not whether or not they were actually upset; the point is that people shouldn't do something that they know (and I'm convinced that most of the press there, being local, did know) would compromise these peoples' religious beliefs.

                Would you sneak some pork or shellfish into a stew if you were having Orthodox Jews over to your house for dinner, if you thought they wouldn't be able to discern that it was in there?

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                • #38
                  Would you sneak some pork or shellfish into a stew if you were having Orthodox Jews over to your house for dinner, if you thought they wouldn't be able to discern that it was in there?
                  'I' wouldn't.. and I'm pretty sure 'you' wouldn't, Amy.. but, having (unfortunately) had to work with the media for about 10 fairly-miserable years, I wouldn't put it past most of 'them' if it somehow got a story.

                  Anne

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AmyG
                    I don't think that it matters whether or not they were too upset, grief-stricken, etc., to notice that their religious beliefs had been compromised. The point is not whether or not they were actually upset; the point is that people shouldn't do something that they know (and I'm convinced that most of the press there, being local, did know) would compromise these peoples' religious beliefs.

                    Would you sneak some pork or shellfish into a stew if you were having Orthodox Jews over to your house for dinner, if you thought they wouldn't be able to discern that it was in there?
                    Good one Enjo.

                    Amy : I wouldn't but then again I am not a reporter... As a matter of fact I don't believe in any kind of God at all and still; no I wouldn't. That's just the same plain decency that I expect from others when it comes to my 'beliefs'.

                    My point was not to undermine yours. My point was that if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it, etcetera.

                    I just read that the Amish community forgives the murderer. I would not be able to do that. Not ever. Are they weird or over-religious, or am I so unforgiving?

                    Edit : here's a newslink to the latest info. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061004/D8KHONM80.html
                    Last edited by Towelmaster; 10-04-2006, 10:46 AM.
                    "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

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                    • #40
                      Enjo, I used to work in the entertainment industry -- dealing mostly with lawyers -- so yeah, I'm used to working with despicable, soulless human beings, too.

                      Towelmaster, sorry if I sounded confrontational: like you, I was just trying to make a point. As for the forgiveness issue, I don't think you're unusual in saying that you couldn't forgive the murderer. I'm sure I couldn't, either. But there's a certain school of religious thought, not unknown to Christians, that says that the ultimate act of being a good human being in the eyes of (G)(g)od/dess/es (you might call it "charity" or "grace") is to be able to face your enemies with compassion. It's really easy to embrace that concept in theory, but if I were one of the parents of those murdered children -- particularly the pair of sisters (those parents lost two children!) -- I'd find it very, very difficult to put into practice myself.

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                      • #41
                        I think that forgiving those that have harmed you is a state of grace that can be aspired to, but is very hard to truly achieve. Certainly it's part of the Christain doctrine. I would note, though, that the community has forgiven as opposed to the individual parents. Even at the community level, it's an admirable thing, but I can't imagine being able to do it myself.
                        "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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                        • #42
                          For me, one aspect of this incident that makes it even more tragic is that it happened to the Amish. I don't believe as they do and don't agree with much of what they believe but I've never heard it said that they don't truly live their religion and beliefs. If there's a saving grace, it's that a major part of their lives is the strong sense of community that they reportedly have. They've got all of my sympathy and respect.

                          Jan
                          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                          • #43
                            From what I've read, they're not as stringent as they once were. Teenagers go into town and stuff now.
                            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              What can I say that has not already been said?

                              This kind of 'blame-someone-else' violence sickens me. I am a part of a religeous minority myself ( a Jehovah's Witness) but even we have at least some social intergration, secular work within society, cell phones, cars.

                              How sad that there was no quick way to alert anybody!

                              What this guy did was just plain evil.

                              To blame innocent people - children, to boot - who had totally and absolutely NO chance of any self defence, well I just do not have the words.

                              'Religious differences' doesn't even come into it. I just feel for these people.

                              I don't have the words.
                              http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
                              Yes, I still collect Laserdiscs!!
                              47" Phillips 1080p 46" Samsung 1080p Toshiba HD-30E (2 both Multi Region) PS3-80G 120G BR Multi-Region Maidstone MD-BR-2102 Sky-HD Freesat-HD Pioneer DVL-909 CLD-D925 CLD-2950 (AC3) CLD-D515 CLD S315 Yamaha ADP-1 Meridian 519 Pioneer 609 (DD/DTS) x 2 Speakers & subs Jammo M/S Pioneer Technics Sony Eltax Akai Aiwa

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by LessonInMachismo
                                Look at this: me defending journalists. Next, I will be sticking up for lawyers.
                                You'd better. We're damn sure a higher form of life than a fucking JOURNALIST.

                                Would you sneak some pork or shellfish into a stew if you were having Orthodox Jews over to your house for dinner, if you thought they wouldn't be able to discern that it was in there?
                                One of my best friends is Jewish, and he occasionally eats bacon.

                                Sometimes people can be a bit TOO serious about their religion. It's kind of why we're fighting a jihad right now.
                                "I don't find myself in the same luxury as you. You grew up in freedom, and you can spit on freedom, because you don't know what it is not to have freedom." ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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