What's WRONG with these people?!?!

[Jan]

Gunman opens fire in Amish school

You know, I don't really care if somebody wants to kill himself. It's sad, but as far as I'm concerned it's their life so that's their choice. But what gives with the fad lately of opening fire on perfect strangers and only then blowing your brains out? Are these latest incidents copycat crimes or is something else going on?

I read a book many years ago by John Brunner where, due to overpopulation, this sort of thing had become so common that the term for 'people running amok' was 'muckers'. I really hate it when my fiction ends up being prophetic.

Jan

[Joe Nazzaro]

Every time I read about one of these incidents about a crazed killer shooting a bunch of people before turning the gun on themselves, I always think, couldn't they do it in reverse order and save everybody a lot of misery?

[SmileOfTheShadow]

I feel ya...and it seems every time ONE of these happens there's another bunch that show up. People shouldn't copy that behavior : /

[WorkerCaste]

Yeah, I definitely don't get it, but then again it's probably a good thing that we don't understand it. Is it just that they think so little of themselves, that they want to go out in a blaze of publicity just so they have one notable "accomplishment" in their obit?

[Towelmaster]

@ Jan : John Brunner was way ahead of his time. You either mean "The Hungry Sheep Look Up" or "Stand on Zanzibar". People are just like rats. Too many of 'em and they start killing each other.

And this guy(?) probably had a serious short-circuit in his brain.

[Jan]

@ Jan : John Brunner was way ahead of his time. You either mean "The Hungry Sheep Look Up" or "Stand on Zanzibar". People are just like rats. Too many of 'em and they start killing each other.

I think it was "Stand on Zanzibar". "Sheep" was about pollution and "Stand" was about overpopulation. I can't see that either of those causes could pertain to these happenings, though.

And this guy(?) probably had a serious short-circuit in his brain.

The latest I read says that he claimed to be getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago. As if those little girls had anything to do with that!

I could almost wish that one of these crazies wouldn't kill himself so that maybe somebody could get some insight into what causes this. It can't only be that they were teased and taunted in school as kids. I mean, who hasn't been??

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

The first "school shooting" happened in my hometown. What's sad is that this kind of thing happens weekly in ghetto schools, but it's just seen as normal. The only reason that the school from my hometown -- which had to be 90% non-white -- got national coverage is because it was an elementary school.

[Radhil]

Goddamnit. I do not want to keep reading this shit week after week.

But I will. Because some fucktard in moldy PJs right now is reading it too and thinking, you know, I'd like to have my fifteen minutes.

[Jan]

The first "school shooting" happened in my hometown. What's sad is that this kind of thing happens weekly in ghetto schools, but it's just seen as normal. The only reason that the school from my hometown -- which had to be 90% non-white -- got national coverage is because it was an elementary school.

I agree that shootings go on every day, both in and out of schools in underprivileged areas, LiM. I think what's different about most of these is when there are so many deaths and particularly when it's done by people not even associated with the school, like this one and the Canada. That's different from a drive-by or gang related or drug related shooting. Shame of it is, people have gotten used to that sort of thing while the latest ones seem to be a new phenomenon.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

The only defense, short of turning schools into prison-like facilities (which is obviously impractical), is to shoot them first. Five years or so ago, some nut tried it at a college campus, two students ran to their vehicles, grabbed their handguns and blew him away.

I can't remember which work of fiction it was, but I think it was sci-fi, where it was pondered whether or not executing insane people was moral. The argument was that it was, because if you let them live and they go on a killing spree, you would be responsible. If they were "treated" and brought back to sanity, so to speak, they'd probably commit suicide anyways, due to the guilt caused by the realization of their crimes.

Really interesting.

[Joe Nazzaro]

Machismo, maybe the way to stop these loonies is to put a bullet in their head first, but I can't picture some little Amish kids saying, 'Oh look, there's the milkman, perhaps he's come to kill all of us; let's call home on our non-existent cell phones, and have our parents show up in their non-existent cars and blow this guy away!' As unfortunate as it is, shit happens, and much as we'd like to take these guys out first, sometimes we just don't know it's going to happen. I wish we did.

[Jan]

I can't remember which work of fiction it was, but I think it was sci-fi, where it was pondered whether or not executing insane people was moral. The argument was that it was, because if you let them live and they go on a killing spree, you would be responsible. If they were "treated" and brought back to sanity, so to speak, they'd probably commit suicide anyways, due to the guilt caused by the realization of their crimes.

Really interesting.

Indeed. But it sounds like somebody in the story was advocating executing insane people before they ever even show that they're a danger to themselves and/or others? Now that I could never go along with. IF can't be used as a reason to kill somebody who hasn't done anything.

Even after the fact is a tough one but we've institutionalized many insane killers and I've never heard that they have a high rate of suicide after being cured. But then, how likely is it that somebody who'd done something as heinous as the school killings would ever be 'cured' enough to be released?

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

Indeed. But it sounds like somebody in the story was advocating executing insane people before they ever even show that they're a danger to themselves and/or others? Now that I could never go along with. IF can't be used as a reason to kill somebody who hasn't done anything.

No, this was just the sentencing after murder or attempted murder. It seems that it came off of a discussion of personal responsibility. Man...was it Starship Troopers?

Even after the fact is a tough one but we've institutionalized many insane killers and I've never heard that they have a high rate of suicide after being cured. But then, how likely is it that somebody who'd done something as heinous as the school killings would ever be 'cured' enough to be released?

Exactly.

Machismo, maybe the way to stop these loonies is to put a bullet in their head first, but I can't picture some little Amish kids saying, 'Oh look, there's the milkman, perhaps he's come to kill all of us; let's call home on our non-existent cell phones, and have our parents show up in their non-existent cars and blow this guy away!' As unfortunate as it is, shit happens, and much as we'd like to take these guys out first, sometimes we just don't know it's going to happen. I wish we did.

Well, the point of my post and being Amish apparently aren't compatible. I don't know if there is a good "the best defense if you're Amish" argument.

[Harrdy]

Sometimes, when I am very depressed, I whished the world to end. World War 3, a desease, a meteor, it doesn't matter. It just should end. Yes, to be honest it is *I* want "to end", but I project it out to the world. I guess it doesn't matter, I can't change the path of some space rock with my mind, so what the heck...

But I can tell you where that comes from, at least for me. It has to do with being not seen. I have an office job, and I am happy for it, because I was unemployed for half a year. But I am seriously overqualified (I think I can say that, sorry if somebody thinks I am to proud, I am, but not *here*) and underpayed. What the heck, onto private live... well... my friends kinda "dissappeared" when I was unemployed, having to do with not being able to "do things". The ones that didn't went away did this because they need something from me, they are dependent on me. So no, I am not seen there, either. My parents? Don't make me laugh, they are the reason why I have problems with not being seen.

So, that is the way the world IS. But I don't run around shooting people (outside of games, that is *g*)... I have therapy and learned ways to improve my self-worth. It's not easy, but it's the only responsible thing to do. Either that or blowing your brains out somewhere far away, where nobody get's hurt... BUT(!) that of course is an illusion. Because the feeling of not being seen, the pain of not making a difference, is not 100% true. You DO hurt some people if you end that way. In a group I attended some time ago there was a paramedic (is that term used for civil also? couldn't find another word in the online dictionary...) and he told me the hardest thing was finding some teenagers or lonely people after they committed suicide. It wasn't the blood, it wasn't the gore, he was used to that. Any accident on the street was bloodier. But it was the hopelessness, the lonelyness, the silence that hurt him most. That our world is so uncaring, so deaf to some people.

Anyway, sorry if that above was too much, nobody needs to walk down the hole into the sad, lonely reality. But in this world there are many more sad, lonely people than "evil" persons, the evil acts committed are most of the time not "influenced by the dark side", Satan or anything like that, they are just acts of desperation. Of course that doesn't help any relatives or friends of the victims, but the world makes infinitely more sense if you accept that.

(edit add: ) By the way, one of the reasons why JMS Midnight Nation was so good for me was because of the scene where people where sitting around a campfire, telling the others about how their life went to the worse, because THEY COULDN'T DO ANYTHING. And that scene is so very good, because it shows they COULD have done something, but they where afraid. Or as in the Book of lost Souls: "Better the evil you know...", or "better save than sorry"... the scene where people are walking along the road, never arriving...

PeAcE

[Towelmaster]

I think it was "Stand on Zanzibar". "Sheep" was about pollution and "Stand" was about overpopulation. I can't see that either of those causes could pertain to these happenings, though.
Jan

Stand on Zanzibar had the 'Muckers' in it of which you spoke. Hence the reference. The description of those people going berserk is remarkably similar to what you see happening nowadays. IMO. No direct cause, no warnings in advance, etcetera. It is also a 'reason' that does not require us to think too much about the motives.

The asshole in that school was obviously as mad as a bat. I mean, killing young girls in a schoolroom must be the ultimate crime. It comes close anyway.

I may be against the death-penalty, but that opinion is quite often very hard to defend.