The New Responsible Political Thread

[Karachi Vyce]

this makes me sad. Cuba with the help of chinia are drilling 60 miles away from florda Isn't sad that we are fighting was for oil half a world away while at the same time we are letting the stuff be carried out our back door.:

Oh, that's right, since we just get SOOOOO much of our oil from the Middle East, instead of Mexico, South America, etc.......Wait, why am I bothering. Your very premise, that we're fighting the Iraq War for oil, THAT OLD GAG, tells me everything I need to know. I wish those of you who really believe that bullshit had half a clue on the overall conflict going on in the middle east besides trotting out that lame, erroneous hippie shit. A war for oil, huh? Did you gleam that pearl of wisdom from one of your Rage Against The Machine albums?

[David Panzer]

What talking head on tv told you to say that?

[Towelmaster]

Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

[Der Mike]

I find that democracy is meaningful when the country actually wants it and earns it.

Germany and Japan have worked out nicely with an "imposed" democracy.

Lebanon is looking at humanitarian crisis with all of the refugees heading North and the contuation of a ground assault by Israel. I honestly never know what to believe with Israel and often wonder why we back them.

Well, that they are the only real democracy is nice.

That they actually respect the rights of their people is keen.

That there would never be violence if the Arabs would just LEAVE THEM ALONE is a nice thing.

Not launching attacks from civilian locations is a major plus in their favor --- as it should be for any even moderately civilized society.

That they don't openly and blatantly fund terrorism is a key.

The real question is: Why the heck WOULDN'T we support them?

Or perhaps influence another generation to join terrorist groups and keep the cycle going

Funny how nobody worries about the Israelis becoming more violent after years and years of fairly constant attacks from their neighbors...

We're supposedly trying to spread a democracy we no longer have at home.

This is where the cute concept of "proof" or "evidence" would be quite key.

We are not trying to spread democracy, we are trying to spread capitalism

Considering the alternatives, that is the most humane system.

Socialist France leaves its elderly to die in heatwaves while they go on vacation.

Communism has seen more deaths than any ideology --- by an insane margin --- in the last century. Historically, it's WAY up there; scary, since Communism is not an old concept.

We very arrogantly declare their God and their values invalid and then proceed to irradicate anyone who disagrees from the face of the earth.

Which makes the work we do to free Muslims (which, mind you, is markedly more than what Muslim countries do) all the more baffling. We're the best friend the Muslims have ever had in their fairly blighted existence.

Our critics say they're jealous. I say, not everyone wants to live in a dog-eat-dog, beat the other guy to a pulp to you can take it all society. Sadly, that is what we have become.

No, the Middle East just wants to slaughter anybody who isn't Muslim.

Is that better?

I would agree that the bombing campaigns hurt the bombers as much as they do the people they are bombing. Surely, there's a better way to send a message than to kill a bunch of civilians.

Not when the people launching rockets at you place themselves in the middle of civilians.

And, again, the utter lack of concern for the massive casualties inflicted on Israeli civilians for decades now is stunning.

Isn't sad that we are fighting was for oil half a world away while at the same time we are letting the stuff be carried out our back door.

If we wanted oil, we'd simply cave in to the thugs in the ME. It'd be easy.

What talking head on tv told you to say that?

That the war is not for oil is so obvious, it boggles my mind that some need to be reminded.

Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Hezbollah wants to eradicate Israel.

Like it or not, there isn't a heck of a lot of room for negotiation.

Negotiation with them would be as disastrous as negotiating with Hitler and later Stalin ended up being.
-=Mike

[Shadow-Sentient]

Socialist France leaves its elderly to die in heatwaves while they go on vacation.

Um ... this just happened here in California. A grip of elderly people died during our heat wave. We are not Socialist are we?

I respect your statements and your point of view. It's very well thought out and in many respects convincing. But trying to draw parallel between people between elderly people dying in extreme heat and Socialism in France is a fallacy. It doesn't follow.

Democracy has worked ... so far. But only because until now, it has actually been a Democracy. With the Global village, and technology improvements, we live in a world where corporations that support one party are the very same people who build and provide the voting machines that 'conveniently' do not have paper trails. Where Newscasters call elections before the votes have been counted. Where media pundits put out so much 'spin' that NO ONE really recognizes any one truth or can even discern the truth from the lies. In fact, both sides believe unfailingly that they are right to the point that it sometimes seems like there isn't a truth. Three-edged-sword; I say.
Senators and Congress-people 'redistrict' areas to cheat voters and ensure their seats or create more seats for their party. The 'balance of power' in this country is fast becoming a Unicorn. Conservatives are not truly conservative anymore. Liberals have no cohesiveness. People are at each others throats over political standpoints.

We have an antiquated electoral college that harkens back to the days when representatives would ride into the Capitol on horseback and deliver their districts votes and is so seriously outdated that recent elections had to be decided by the courts. No longer do qualified people become President, we get C students who have a history worse than many people in jail! Nepotism at its finest.
Bills are constantly laden with 'fat' and extras so if any humanitarian good is ever done, some corporation or special interest has a provision to exclude them or give them a hidden hand-out from the government.
How wonderful is this Democracy anyway? Is it really the best system? Well, yeah, the original idea of it was. What it is now ... I don't know. It has evolved and gained a life of it's own. Morphing daily and poked at by so many fingers that it no longer represents what the founders had in mind.

I honestly believe that our 'democracy' is under assault every day. But not by the Muslims or the Jews, or the Brits, or anyone but the greed of our own people. One of the evils of unrestricted Capitalism is unrestricted greed. For such a Christian nation we don't seem to have a problem with people hording every penny they possibly can. Even at the expense of others.

The principles behind Socialism and Communism aren't so bad ... but they have all failed. Democracy has done the best so far, true ... but it ain't what it used to be.

[Ranger1]

Der Mike thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth, i still don't get it, we (Israel) get hit from their rocket attacks for the past 20-30 years!

People act like its something new, that we got hit for the first time 4+ weeks ago, i don't mind that people argue up until 6 years ago, that's when we drew back to the blue line (international known border between Lebanon and Israel), in the 6 years after we drew back people think it was all quite here.... so the answer is NO! Hezbollah kept on firing their rockets on our northern towns and villages... in the year 2003 (if my memory serves me right) a 14 year old boy was killed by one of those rockets (oh and it will be too long to count the injuries and people who lived in bomb shelter in the past 6 years).

We are in the 4th week into this war, 4!!! weeks that im in my house, close to a safe room (since i don't have a bomb shelter), 4 weeks without going out, without working (well i took a 5 day trip to another town because i couldn't take it anymore, but im back in Haifa).

Blah, i can go on forever but im so stressed out.. hope this shit will be over soon.

[AaronB]

Der Mike thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth, i still don't get it, we (Israel) get hit from their rocket attacks for the past 20-30 years!

People act like its something new, that we got hit for the first time 4+ weeks ago, i don't mind that people argue up until 6 years ago, that's when we drew back to the blue line (international known border between Lebanon and Israel), in the 6 years after we drew back people think it was all quite here.... so the answer is NO! Hezbollah kept on firing their rockets on our northern towns and villages... in the year 2003 (if my memory serves me right) a 14 year old boy was killed by one of those rockets (oh and it will be too long to count the injuries and people who lived in bomb shelter in the past 6 years).

We are in the 4th week into this war, 4!!! weeks that im in my house, close to a safe room (since i don't have a bomb shelter), 4 weeks without going out, without working (well i took a 5 day trip to another town because i couldn't take it anymore, but im back in Haifa).

Blah, i can go on forever but im so stressed out.. hope this shit will be over soon.

Ranger, good to hear that you and your family are safe. I was wondering what happened to you and I'm relieved that it was only a vacation.

[Ranger1]

Doing ok, just stressful and hoping none of the future rockets will come anywhere near my house (damn, few were pretty far from me and i swear i thought they hit the next house from me, what a large bang).

Thanks for asking thebaron (ya Jew)

And for my previous post, you all might wanna check this out:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

[AaronB]

How wonderful is this Democracy anyway? Is it really the best system?

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for the rest of them.

[AaronB]

Doing ok, just stressful and hoping none of the future rockets will come anywhere near my house (damn, few were pretty far from me and i swear i thought they hit the next house from me, what a large bang).

Thanks for asking thebaron (ya Jew)

And for my previous post, you all might wanna check this out:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/200...ilking-it.html

Did you go anywhere fun at least? Similar to your link here is another link that has a transcript from a talk show. Interesting read.

[Der Mike]

Um ... this just happened here in California. A grip of elderly people died during our heat wave. We are not Socialist are we?

Do you really wish to compare 139 to tens of thousands? I'd hope not.

Democracy has worked ... so far. But only because until now, it has actually been a Democracy. With the Global village, and technology improvements, we live in a world where corporations that support one party are the very same people who build and provide the voting machines that 'conveniently' do not have paper trails.

And WHY are those machines out there?

Because people here complained about how "bad" paper ballots were in 2000. They "demanded" machines to remove the problems of paper ballots.

And, honestly, if Kerry won --- the complaint would have never been made. It's not like there is any actual proof of any real problems with the electronic ballots.

"Paper trails", for me, seems to be a pretty obvious bastardization of the concept of a secret ballot, which is one of the cherished liberties in this country.

Where Newscasters call elections before the votes have been counted.

That's been done long before electronic ballots existed. Exit polling is not a new concept.

Senators and Congress-people 'redistrict' areas to cheat voters and ensure their seats or create more seats for their party. The 'balance of power' in this country is fast becoming a Unicorn. Conservatives are not truly conservative anymore. Liberals have no cohesiveness. People are at each others throats over political standpoints.

I do not like the way most states (is it Iowa who actually has an impartial agency draw the lines?) draw their lines --- but that is one of the unfortunate legacy of the Voting Rights Act that was, stupidly, re-authorized this year. There HAS to be majority-minority districts, which forces the drawing of absurd districts to achieve.

We have an antiquated electoral college that harkens back to the days when representatives would ride into the Capitol on horseback and deliver their districts votes and is so seriously outdated that recent elections had to be decided by the courts.

The courts dealt with a state Supreme Court changing its state's electoral laws after the fact, which is clearly illegal.

The Electoral College is the only way to prevent outright corruption from winning an election. It is not enough to cheat massively in one state to win an election. It's not the best system --- but it's better than any alternative presented to date.

No longer do qualified people become President, we get C students who have a history worse than many people in jail! Nepotism at its finest.

Spare me. Harry Truman was not a terribly well-educated man and ended up being a magnificent President. Bush, for all of his faults, is the ideal President for the conflict we're dealing with.

Bills are constantly laden with 'fat' and extras so if any humanitarian good is ever done, some corporation or special interest has a provision to exclude them or give them a hidden hand-out from the government.

That started in the 30's. And since the only people who can stop it are the same elected officials people put back in office for bringing back the pork, it isn't going to stop happening.

How wonderful is this Democracy anyway? Is it really the best system? Well, yeah, the original idea of it was. What it is now ... I don't know. It has evolved and gained a life of it's own. Morphing daily and poked at by so many fingers that it no longer represents what the founders had in mind.

Democracy is a seriously flawed system.

It's just less flawed than every other system devised by man.

I honestly believe that our 'democracy' is under assault every day. But not by the Muslims or the Jews, or the Brits, or anyone but the greed of our own people. One of the evils of unrestricted Capitalism is unrestricted greed.

But there ISN'T "unrestricted capitalism". The conviction of Lay, Skilling, and Fastow clearly demonstrate that.

Now, is the greed of us hurting us? Yup. We can't begin to afford things like Social Security, Medicare, etc. Bush, in his defense, DID try to come up with ways to fix up some of the problems in Social Security and got slammed for it.

For such a Christian nation we don't seem to have a problem with people hording every penny they possibly can. Even at the expense of others.

We give more than any country on Earth. I do not feel bad about our prosperity.

The principles behind Socialism and Communism aren't so bad ... but they have all failed. Democracy has done the best so far, true ... but it ain't what it used to be.

The principles of Socialism and Communism require a government able to circumvent basic human nature.

That is profoundly bad.

And, ranger, I hope you come out of this well. Israel will never be given the support is warrants by the int'l community and it's sad. Your country has bent over backwards to achieve peace and has simply been slapped, repeatedly, for doing so. Those who expect Israel to negotiate with people whose goal is its eradication are unrealistic. You can't negotiate with people who don't believe you have a right to exist.
-=Mike

[AaronB]

Just a quick word about election fraud. It is well known that the election in 1960 Kennedy won the election because of Illinois. It is also pretty well known that the Mayor of Chicago at that time, Mayor Daley had lots of dead and ficticous people voting for Kennedy which actually won the election for him. Nixon decided to not contest the election because of the harm that it would do to the country. IIRC the difference was even less than that of the 2000 election.

Should Nixon had made a fuss anyway? Or since the "right" candidate won does it not matter?

[Der Mike]

More importantly, Truman and LBJ both got into office with elections that weren't just MODERATELY corrupted but, instead, outright bought. Take away that and two men who won the WH would have never had a shot at it.
-=Mike

[Andrew_Swallow]

Communism has seen more deaths than any ideology --- by an insane margin --- in the last century. Historically, it's WAY up there; scary, since Communism is not an old concept.

Communism was nothing more than the feudal system applied to factories. Since a factory, unlike a farm, does not grow its own food the concept failed. Particularly in the extra exploitative version where the lord of the manor (factory boss) controlled all of the land rather than half of it.

[Karachi Vyce]

I only wish Mike could be around more.

Because he could accomplish the rampaging and pillaging of this thread that I wanted.