The New Responsible Political Thread

[Shadow-Sentient]

Seeing as the thread starter of the last political thread has abandoned it, I thought it fitting to start a new one.

I am heading out to see Bill Maher in Sacramento tomorrow. I saw him in LA for a taping of "Real Time" when I lived down there. To me, he's one of the most astute political observers and I am in agreement with the majority of his assertions (not all ... I'm not so much a Libertarian but am Independant). Politically speaking he's as close aligned as I get to any other 'celebrity'.

Currently, Israel has attacked its neighbors. Anyone want to share their views on this?
They have massed troops on the Lebanese border.
Does this seemed planned to you?
Are you concerned?
Is part of the US plan to Democratize the Middle East?
Is attacking Hezzbollah worth the gross attrition of civilian life?
Do you feel Israel is making a wise decision?
Should America support them?

The 'war' in Iraq continues.
The loss of life there is staggering.
The people are worse off now than they were under Hussein and our military is politicized into impotency.
Young men and women are killed daily (American and Iraqi).
There is no official exit strategy or any strategy to speak of.
Bin Laden is still free.

There's plenty of things we can address here. Please feel free to address any of these topics.

[Karachi Vyce]

Now I'm going to have to cajole Cheesmo to come back here now. Cause I want to burn your fucking thread into the ground.

[Jan]

Don't worry...the impulse will pass and you'll listen to the better angels of your nature, I'm sure.

Jan

[Karachi Vyce]

You don't know me very well, do you.

[Jan]

Does it matter? Stick to discussing the issues, not pillaging and burning.

Jan
Moderator

[David Panzer]

I find that democracy is meaningful when the country actually wants it and earns it. The States overthrew Hussein, a "democracy" has been established, now the people of Iraq should take charge. That aspect has to be learned on their own.

Ever since I've been alive (born in 1978), the Middle East has always had a fight going on, so my view of this recent outburst with Israel and Lebanon is "same old shit".

[Shadow-Sentient]

I find that democracy is meaningful when the country actually wants it and earns it. The States overthrew Hussein, a "democracy" has been established, now the people of Iraq should take charge. That aspect has to be learned on their own.

Ever since I've been alive (born in 1978), the Middle East has always had a fight going on, so my view of this recent outburst with Israel and Lebanon is "same old shit".

I too remember nothing but fighting in the Middle East. To be fair though, there has been plenty of other fighting in Europe, Africa, and South America. So, in an effort to try to gain a beter understanding of the situation, I posed the question.
As far as Democracy in Iraq, do you honestly believe that Democracy is what they want and that they can maintain it? It's contrary to their whole system of belief or at least, seems to be.

Lebanon is looking at humanitarian crisis with all of the refugees heading North and the contuation of a ground assault by Israel. I honestly never know what to believe with Israel and often wonder why we back them.

Now I'm going to have to cajole Cheesmo to come back here now. Cause I want to burn your fucking thread into the ground.

That's an unusual amount of hostility considering that the idea was to see if more reasoned debate could exist. If your goal is to just burn the thread, I would contend that you have no desire to debate amicably and am plussed to wonder why such anger? No matter our political differences, we all seem to have in common that we love the greatest Science Fiction series of all time ... being a fan of this show indicates some level of intelligence and thoughtfulness, unless you just like the graphics and the explosions and fast-forward through all of the plot and dialogue junk ... but I'm guessing that anyone who would take the time to come to the boards looking for others who share their interest in the show might also be a little more insightful. Intelligent reasoned political discourse isn't too much to ask for is it?

[starbound]

Burning Threads

Sounds kind of like burning flags!

[AaronB]

Currently, Israel has attacked its neighbors. Anyone want to share their views on this?
They have massed troops on the Lebanese border.
Does this seemed planned to you?
Are you concerned?
Is part of the US plan to Democratize the Middle East?
Is attacking Hezzbollah worth the gross attrition of civilian life?
Do you feel Israel is making a wise decision?
Should America support them?

The 'war' in Iraq continues.
The loss of life there is staggering.
The people are worse off now than they were under Hussein and our military is politicized into impotency.
Young men and women are killed daily (American and Iraqi).
There is no official exit strategy or any strategy to speak of.
Bin Laden is still free.

There's plenty of things we can address here. Please feel free to address any of these topics.

Interesting phrasing to your first question (and to all your questions actually) that Israel has "attacked its neighbors" whe you could have easily said "Israel is currently attempting to retrieving two soldiers that were abducted" or "Israel has decided in helping Lebanon in getting rid of the Hezbolah occupation in the South since it's tired of having missiles launched at it from those positions"
Does it seemed planned? When you live in a country where all of your surrounding neighbors want to drive you into the see you had damn well have military plans.
The gross attrition of human life didn't just start here, it started when bombs went off at crowded bus stations, night clubs and restaurants. Not to mention rocket attacks from the south of Lebanon.
Is Israel making a wise choice? I don't know. But think of it this way, what would be a wiser solution? To allow their solders to be abducted by terrorists? Allow their citizens to have rockets launched at them? To disband the country? Wait for the UN to work it's usual magic?

[David Panzer]

Or perhaps influence another generation to join terrorist groups and keep the cycle going

[AaronB]

Or perhaps influence another generation to join terrorist groups and keep the cycle going

As long as there is insitutionalized hatred ingrained from when they are little kids, they will always have members joining.

[David Panzer]

That too, but you can't say that seeing your nation being bombed to the 19th century doesn't play a significant part

[starbound]

"It's the old chicken and the egg thing!

Very honestly, the comment about the ingrained hatred is true, but wherever there is such, it seems there are always those who will exploit it to their own advantage. Such is the tradgedy of human nature...and this dilema is seen over and over again in Babylon 5...another astute observation from the writer.

As another comment stated, (para-phrasing) you kill one rebel and you create three hundred more, etc., etc. This is true for as long as injury continues to be done to either party; the revenge will keep on coming.

It would seem the only hope for peace would be a powerful, uninvolved entity that could establish reason...which the United States was at one time, sadly no more. Now we have lost credibility because of our own thinly veiled motivations. You can't roll in on a rocket and tell someone to stop defending themselves...why people don't catch on to the blatant hypocracy of this is beyond me.

Conversely, the other theory is that a big enough bully can rule the roost. Well, that's very Sadam Hussain, thank you...and hmm...it kinda sounds a lot like Washington these days. The problem is the rest of the world's caught on to us. We're supposedly trying to spread a democracy we no longer have at home. But anyone who's ever been connected to a higher level , international corporate executive knows the truth. We are not trying to spread democracy, we are trying to spread capitalism...meaning converting the world to "corporate philosophy". This is offensive to people who still come from primarily "God based" societies. We very arrogantly declare their God and their values invalid and then proceed to irradicate anyone who disagrees from the face of the earth. Then we wonder why they get mad at us. Our critics say they're jealous. I say, not everyone wants to live in a dog-eat-dog, beat the other guy to a pulp to you can take it all society. Sadly, that is what we have become.

Yes,Israel and the Palestinians, and all the other arab and/or moslem countries have been doing this since Biblical times. However, at this period in history, it is highly advantageous to "some inter-global" power brokers to let them have at it, destroy each other at will and then come in and dominate or is that "re-build" whatever is left...if there is anything left that is.

[Shadow-Sentient]

Fair enough. My initial questions do pose a bias I was not intending. However, when I was writing the questions I was unaware of this and genuinely trying to stir some conversation. Thanks for pointing that out.

Like I stated though, I don't know what to think. But the comments about setting up Capitalism ring much more true than trying to establish Democracies in countries where Democracy goes against the very nature of a "God based" society.
I would agree that the bombing campaigns hurt the bombers as much as they do the people they are bombing. Surely, there's a better way to send a message than to kill a bunch of civilians. Your point is well taken. It begs the question however, is it okay if it's done by a country as opposed to a small group of terrorists? Same tactics ... civilians are dying in an effort to hurt the enemy. Do you see this as the only solution?

Interesting phrasing to your first question (and to all your questions actually) that Israel has "attacked its neighbors" whe you could have easily said "Israel is currently attempting to retrieving two soldiers that were abducted" or "Israel has decided in helping Lebanon in getting rid of the Hezbolah occupation in the South since it's tired of having missiles launched at it from those positions"
Does it seemed planned? When you live in a country where all of your surrounding neighbors want to drive you into the see you had damn well have military plans.
The gross attrition of human life didn't just start here, it started when bombs went off at crowded bus stations, night clubs and restaurants. Not to mention rocket attacks from the south of Lebanon.
Is Israel making a wise choice? I don't know. But think of it this way, what would be a wiser solution? To allow their solders to be abducted by terrorists? Allow their citizens to have rockets launched at them? To disband the country? Wait for the UN to work it's usual magic?

[Night Marshal]

Off shor drilling

this makes me sad. Cuba with the help of chinia are drilling 60 miles away from florda Isn't sad that we are fighting was for oil half a world away while at the same time we are letting the stuff be carried out our back door. And guess what the demacrates in congress think this is great because right now they are fighting the us drilling in those same waters. I guess they just like that blood oil better because in the short term that our only other source. It just makes be mad when I see something like this. And you know that if something goes wrong with that cuba drig there not gonig to clean it up there going to make us(the US) do it. sigh