The Rampant. irresponsible sports thread

[phazedout]

Hivinh off from the religion thread ...

They believe in competition but not for competitions sake. Sports and games are fun but like all things should not be done to excess. God comes first.

On the last one, I can see their point. So many people are literally OBSESSED with sports that they stop living their lives. I have a friend who gets up in the morning, checks the scores in the paper. Goes to work. Comes home and turns on ESPN. He has no life outside of this. Does not go out anymore. Has nothing to talk about if you do happen to see him on the one time in the year he was coaxed into leaving the house. It's a sad affair.
Sports stars are paid WAY TOO MUCH MONEY. They are PLAYING a game not curing F****ng cancer! The amount of time and money put into sports in this country is staggering. I don't have a problem with sports per say, but the excesses that come along with it worry me.
When fans flip cars over in the streets or set them on fire or riot because their team lost OR won ... I have a problem with it. When people bash out car windows because the owner of the vehicle has a team logo other than the team they support ... I have a problem with it. When atheletes pump themselves up with steroids so they can remain competetive, I have a problem with it.
When ignoramuses are handed College Degrees and accepted to the best schools because they can play basketball, I have a problem with it.

So, if the JW's have an issue with competitiveness in sports ... I sorta see why. They had many picnic's when I was growing up and they always played some sort of sport at them. But it was about fun and not competition. Nobody cared who won or lost as long as you had fun playing.

Like I said before, I'm not a JW. But I find them "mostly harmless".

I'm inclined to agree with the sports sentiments expressed here. I've spent some time in the UK (don't live there, but visitied a lot as a child, and more as an adult with friends living over there) and I just can't undestand the rabid obsession with soccer. I've seen pubs in manchester which have "no shirts" signs up on match days so that there isn't trouble. I've seen footage of coked-up sports stars being let off with warnings and fines for drugs posessions that would get normal people locked up for 20 years.
It's a game peopel, support your team, cheer for them but don't commit violence in their name.
To contrast this I would point to the few Gaelic Football matches I've attended. I admit I only got into the sport last year, and went to a few games in rapid sucession BUT...
No segregation of fans, I was sitting bside, in front of, and behind plenty of fans for the opossing team.
No argument afterwards - on ematch ended in a very tight draw and, despite some flagrant fouling on behalf of one team, no arguemnts were evidenced by the fans, and we all (80,000+) walked away from the gournd, mingling afterwards freely with discussions of good and bad points of the game, but no violence.
PEople can be passionate about sport without resorting to violence.
So,
Having lit the blue touch paper and stood well back, what do others think?
Phazedout
on the "sparking debate" ID

[Garibaldi's Hair]

\GH pulls up a chair and pours himself a nice hot cup of tea

Actually, as a Englishman, nothing disgusts me more than the (well-deserved) reputation our football "fans" have gained over the years. As someone who stopped going to games regularly as a teenager simply because of the constant underlying feeling that violence could kick off at any time, I am pleased to see that the situation is no longer that bad, but there is a long way to go before our reputation can be considered restored.

However, this is neither an exclusively English nor exclusively football (or soccer) related thing. Several countries in Europe have "fans" potentially just as violent as the English, and I seem to recall half of Montreal was trashed by fans the last time the Canadiens won the Stanley Cup (GO DUCKS!).

Sport is a passionate and emotional thing, but when it gets to that stage soimething is very wrong. It is, after all, only sport.

As for the money ... well, as in all walks of life, the amount of money paid reflects the amount of money available. Football these days is awash with cash from lucrative TV deals, pay per view, club and player sponsorship, endorsement deals, advertising contracts, etc. Given the announcement that 16 of the English Premiership's 20 teams made a profit last year, it cannot be argued that the clubs cannot afford it.

Whether it is moral or not to be paid that much money for doing something the rest of us do for fun is always going to be an interesting argument, but market forces are at work here.

[phazedout]

GH,

I wasn't specifical;y targetting Enlish (or British) fans with that comment, I can only speak from my own (limited) experience. Inevitably we draw comparisons with what we know.
As to the money side of things, I don't object to the obscene amounts of money paid to these people, they have a talent and have exploited that talent to entertain millions of people, if the (as you say) market forces determine that this is the renumeration that they receive for it, then so be it.

what I object strongly to is the idea that, just because someone is famous, they should not be punished for behaviour that would get someone else locked away for ahlf their life.
As to the violence, once could argue that because these people are held in such a high regard (and perhaps are paid soooo much money) then when they fail (or are seen to fail) those people watching (who have much invested, whether psychologicaly, moneterily, or from a sense of inbuilt pride) feel that they have to act out. Since they cannot (at least not easily) directly attack those whom they see to have failed them, they lash out indiscrinitely at the easiest target.
It is unfortuneate, but i tdoes happen. This, as GH said, not limited to soccer, but spreads across ALL sports to some extent.
I'll close with what I've always felt was an apporiate quote from Asimov:
"violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"
Phaze
on the "thread seems to be mutating into psychology, ah well" ID

[manwithnoname]

Sport is a passionate and emotional thing, but..., after all, only sport.

Whether it is moral or not to be paid that much money ...market forces are at work here.

I agree, GHair. People are warped when it comes to sports.

My theory: vicarious tribalism. People's identities are tied to "their team." When the team wins, they also "win." People like and want to be a part of Something, especially if that something is successful. A team experiences a loss, that person feels a personal loss.

I don't know how it is across the various European countries, but in America, sport stars get traded all the time. So, the sport celebrity they cheered on before is now part of a team they despise. Essentially, people are cheering for clothes. This is a broad generalization, I know; I'm sure there are fans who don't fit this explanation.

Re: Market forces
People vote with their wallet.

People can whine & complain, unique to the human species, but it is a plain and simple truth. Team owners & management wouldn't be able to pay the high salaries -- if fans didn't fork over their money. Fans may, reluctantly, hand over their money, so they give owners & management the green light to do as they wish.

[phazedout]

I agree, GHair. People are warped when it comes to sports.

My theory: vicarious tribalism. People's identities are tied to "their team." When the team wins, they also "win." People like and want to be a part of Something, especially if that something is successful. A team experiences a loss, that person feels a personal loss.

Rings bell from the evolutionary Psychology standpoint, we evovled in tribes, and some theorists think that at a fundamental level we feel a great need to belong.

I don't know how it is across the various European countries, but in America, sport stars get traded all the time. So, the sport celebrity they cheered on before is now part of a team they despise. Essentially, people are cheering for clothes. This is a broad generalization, I know; I'm sure there are fans who don't fit this explanation.

There's also the ingroup/outgroup theory proposed by Bandura regarding the fact that poeple will want to belong to a group, and once they feel group identity they well seek to advance positive aspects of their own group and emphasise the negative aspects of all other groups. This has been applied to sports teams, national pride and sense of national identity.

Phazedout
on the "doing a psyche degree ATM so seeing such things in everything I read" ID

[Radhil]

Essentially, people are cheering for clothes. This is a broad generalization, I know; I'm sure there are fans who don't fit this explanation.

Even when they don't, they do. The Yankees/BoSox rivalry is one of the most visible in baseball. And there's also been more controversial trades between the two teams. I've seen rabid Yankee fans who follow every game, and mellow fans who are aloof and mainly fans for family (or specific players), they both bitch about these kind of trades. Up until the very second said player starts playing.

It is all about the clothes. Or pinstripes, as they say around here.

Scary, ain't it?

There's also the ingroup/outgroup theory proposed by Bandura regarding the fact that poeple will want to belong to a group, and once they feel group identity they well seek to advance positive aspects of their own group and emphasise the negative aspects of all other groups. This has been applied to sports teams, national pride and sense of national identity.

You could probably apply that to any human mob from 5 to 5 million, and have some truth ring out. Hell, I can apply that to every competition mankind has ever made. From sport to high school cliques to war.

.

Oh, and... *ahem* Go Yanks.

[manwithnoname]

Oh, crap. I guess I could've put the Ultimate Fighting thing in here, but it escaped me at the time.

Any tennis fans out there. I love watching and playing tennis. It's been really hard for me to follow tennis for the past 5 years b/c I decided to do away with cable. I only have the rabbit-ears contraption.

I'd appreciate any updates in the tennis world. Thank you.