CORI-checks for a highschool Prom, justified or not?

[Towelmaster]

Just like to know what you all think, right or wrong?

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/thecori10.htm

[Andrew_Swallow]

It is only a few years ago that British teachers first had criminal record checks made on them. An education establishment would have difficulties running checks on students let alone guests.

[Towelmaster]

Well apparently they did anyway. But this is not really about teachers or other people who come into close contact with the students. I personally do not have a problem with those checks. But these were boyfriends and girlfriends or the students who were they just to go to the party. How far do you go with backgroundchecks? Hence my question.

[Jan]

The way I see it, the way it was done was *absolutely* wrong and from appearances, completely illegal. No record checks should be made on anybody, adult or juvenile, without their knowledge so that they can decide whether to submit or not.

I can almost understand the policy *if* the school has had major problems in the past. Nothing like that is suggested by the article, though.

What incredible hoops kids have to jump through these days if it's common to have to provide ID on a guest *before* an event. Blech. I'm glad I grew up when I did and not these days.

Jan

[phazedout]

Just on a more sane policy, when I was due to turn 18 (july '89) I was final year of secondary school (Irish Equiv of high school) and there would be a "Debs" (probably short for Debeutaunts <sp>) the following September. There was usually Alcohol served at these things, and a lot of under-age drinking went on (Note legal age over here is 18, not 21). There was an assembly held in MArch, and the principal asked how many of us would be over 18 that september (5).
Since the Debs was school sponsored, the governemnt had brought in legislation saying the school would be porsecuted if any under-age drinking went on - result? no Debs, rather a lome (to use american venaculir) Dinner which our parents were invited to, follwed by a disco.

So, while not as bad as police checks on dates, it still heralded these kinds of chages.
As an aside, most schools have no introduced a "transition year" between 3rd year (and end of compulsary schooling around age 15/16) and the two years of study for the LEaving Cert (equiv of hig-school diploma or a-level) which pushes the av age over 18, so it's come full circle.
Phaze
on the "am I even vaguely on topic here" ID

[frulad]

I'm horrified that a school would do such a thing, though oddly not surprised...

If some kid ran into some trouble but did their punishment, be it community service or time in juvvy hall or whatever, than that should be in their past and stay in their past. To bar them from an event because they did something wrong in their past is nothing more than finding them guilty before the fact. What's next?

I'm also shocked by this-

[Kenneth Jenks, D-Y principal, ] also said Monday that ''the guest agrees that we do that check.'' He cited a consent form sent home by the school but refused to provide a copy to the Times.

Obtained yesterday, the form, ''DYRHS Senior Prom Guest Guidelines and Procedures,'' makes no mention of criminal records checks.

Holy Jeez this guy needs to be fired and fast! Not only is this a PR nightmare for the school now, he got the school caught in a big freakin' lie.


However, this does remind me of my senior year of Catholic High School, when I was dating a girl from another school whom I had met at the District Chorus festival a few months earlier. As I went to buy my tickets for our Prom, the wrinkeled nun in the Activities Office started grilling me about who I was taking. Since I didn't really think it was any of her business (they weren't doing assigned seating or anything like that), I calmely replied, "Oh, you don't know her. She goes to Nortwest Poconno."

"Oh," said the nun, looking slightly annoyed. "Well, I need to know her name anyways."

Still not really seeing the need for it, I still told her.

"Well how did you meet her?"

"Well Sister, you know when I missed four days of class back in January..."

She didn't seem too amused that I had missed school to meet girls.

But she REALLY wasn't amused when my friend Mike, who was dating the older sister of a mutual friend, told her that his date was a student at the Univeristy of Chicago.

[Dr Maturin]

Considering how any of us can run criminal background checks on each other, given that we have a name to go by, this isn't illegal. Besides, there are much more troublesome things to worry about than a school wanting to keep lowlifes out of their proms.

And you should see the anal cavity search my private school put both prospective students and prom dates through.

[Karachi Vyce]

So ZHD asked me to comment on the legality of this.

The article kind of spells it out:

Under state law, schools may obtain CORI information about a person only if the subject has signed a specific CORI request form provided by the state, according to a 2003 advisory from the state education department.

A state Department of Education spokeswoman said yesterday that, to the agency's knowledge, the D-Y background checks were a violation of the state CORI law.

So it looks as if this may in deed be a violation of the law, on technical grounds (i.e. that they didn't use the exact form required). However, it's hard to be 100% sure, since whatever "consent" form they allegedly sent home hasn't been provided, at least to the press.

Generally speaking, Jan's pretty right in that if you're going to run a background check on someone, you'd best get their consent. It's hard to tell exactly how much consent, if any, was given here. It doesn't appear like much at all was, considering one of the young men denied a ticket said:

''I don't like the way the school approached it,'' he said. ''I wish they had actually called me, talked to me, and gotten my permission to CORI my record.''

If you're doing criminal background checks without someone's knowledge or consent, you're sort of opening yourself up to tort action, the person in question could decide to sue you for something like invasion of privacy, that sort of thing. It might be a little worse in this case, because it appears to be a public school doing this, so these kids could argue that their civil rights have been violated (because any time a government actor - in this case a public school - is involved in something like this, it's potentially a civil rights violation). However, even if these kids decided to sue the school, I'm not sure really what restitution they'd receive, given that their injury here is relatively minor.

Seems to me that the school had a good idea (who wants the lowlifes some of these girls want to bring as their dates at the prom?), they just didn't think it through all the way and half-assed it. They should have got the specific CORI forms and explicitly stated that if any non-students wanted to get a ticket to the prom that they would have to allow a CORI check.

[Dr Maturin]

This is what sickens me about your profession, Vyce. Some little whiner can sue the government because some idiotioc bureaucrat fucked up and didn't know state law and checked his criminal record without consent, but no less than ten different law firms told me that I didn't have a case when a drunk doctor killed my dad during surgery.

One must also question WHY this is illegal. Shit, newspapers print police reports, jury rulings, etc. I am unsure if they do so when the subject is a minor, but even so, I don't see the damage caused by the school looking this stuff up.

[David Panzer]

If the school is unable to follow the law, then they deserve to get sued over it.

[Dr Maturin]

If the school is unable to follow the law, then they deserve to get sued over it.

I don't live in that state, so more power to them suing the government which is paid for by my taxes. But if I did, I'd fight a stupid law like that and fire the morons who didn't know or understand it.

[David Panzer]

Exactly. I'm no longer in school, it's been 10 years since my high school graduation.

I'm guessing this deals with juveniles, since I doubt high school age kids will take a person in their 20's or older to the prom as their date. While I have my doubts, there are exceptions to everything.

Now, first time misdemeanor offences are generally given community service and a determined time of probation (from a few months or even a year). Once everything has been completed, the charge is then expunged from the record and it's as if you've committed nothing. Actually, they just move the file from one room to the other, at least that's what happens in Memphis. So, if a person had one year probation, let's say 24 hours community service and whatever else the court decides for a person who committed a misdemeanor, once that individual has completed those requirements, he or she can say answer "no" to question "Have you been convicted of a crime?", since the fine print underneath that question excludes those convictions that have been expunged.

The school has the legal right to know what persons are coming to whatever events they hold. If the school follows the law to the letter in obtaining background checks on individuals, whine all you want about it, they have the legal right. If the school obtains those records in a method that isn't according to the law, then the individual has the right to sue.

And if a person is unaware that when the judge said that their conviction would be expunged, and they still answered "yes" to the question "Have you been convicted of a crime?", tough.

[Dr Maturin]

My prom date didn't go to my school, but she had before. They didn't like her, but not because she was a lowlife. Speaking of that, go to the pic thread to see my prom pic. Erg...wait until later. I can't go to GeoCities from work.

[David Panzer]

I never went to prom. Nothing about it interested me enough to go

[Dr Maturin]

I went to three. My own, my ex's and to the one of a friend who didn't have a date.