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**manwithnoname** · 04-07-2006, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Der Mike

Would you trust, say, Rush Limbaugh discussing "liberal viewpoints"?

No, you wouldn't. Because you know he not only does not subscribe to them, but also holds them in contempt.

JMS is the same way. WAY too many comics writers are the same way.

Capt. America is going to go to Canada. America is too "fascist". Just hope he has a blast with those wacky speech codes.

You have to, of course, assume JMS is capable of making a cogent and entertaining storyline involving differing viewpoints. Your faith is quite impressive, but it's not something I can remotely concur with.

You can have noble "ideals". Doesn't make them reality.

The writers of "Day After Tomorrow", if you were to ASK them, weren't LOOKING to write a laughable film about a disaster caused by that natural phenomenon of global warming. Michael Moore TRULY thinks his films are "fair". George Clooney thinks that Hollywood is "brave" to come out against racism and McCarthyism.

What you want and what you actually DO are usually dramatically different.

No. Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

Perhaps this will break the comics' world perfect record in this regard --- but I'm not overly optimistic.

Gee, wonder which side of the border the supervillains and superheroes will join up forces against?

Gee, I wonder which group will have actually valid reasons for their actions?

I've never been raped. If I heard a serial rapist moved next door, I'd complain. I do believe in track records.

Heck, I'll bite --- why?

What, precisely, did the hippies accomplish?

Completely ruin the entire concept of universities? Check.

Ruin relations between men and women, making them into, far too often, little more than sex romps rather than actual courtship? Check.

Re-defined hypocrisy for the millenia? Check.

The hippies did not "end" the Vietnam War, much as the current flock of pseudo-intellectual professors wish to believe they did. An inept gov't in S. Vietnam did that job nicely.

Was that before the whole "Don't trust anybody over 30" thing?
Before the whole "Police are fascist pigs" thing?

Don't attempt to romanticize the hippies.

Fair enough.

I provided MAJOR problems with the hippies. I'll go over them again here:

They were undeniably sexist.

Undeniably rich, idle white boys for the most part.

Screwed up higher education beyond repair.

Decided to confuse "being a dick" with "dissent".

Cheered undeniably evil people (Mao was stunningly popular amongst the "peace" crowd. Ironic, considering that he killed more people than any man in history) against the U.S.

Has led to social movements whose only real accomplishment is making permanent the poverty in the Third World.

Spat on soldiers who went to Vietnam because they were ordered to do so.

Made infantile behavior a badge of honor (read "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and NOT have a burning desire to drive a rusty spike through the skull of every one of those idiots. Go ahead and try).

Became terrorists (the Weather Underground launched from somewhere)

So, please, enlighten me as to the "benefits" of the hippies. I'm quite curious.

It was actually dripping with condescension.

As was this.

Thank God YOU don't stereotype people or view them narrowly, huh?

No.

By and large, they are the attempts of average (at best) writers to show the world that they CAN write, all the while demonstrating that there is a reason they aren't penning novels terribly often.
-=Mike

First, Limbaugh is a toe-the-line Republican. He just repeats the party line. I'm not Republican or Democrat or Green Party. I've voted Republican in the past, as I've voted Democrat in the past. Why? I try to weigh their viewpoints on things. Offering blankets statements as "liberal" is making you just as guilty. I don't agree with liberals most of the time AND Republicans AND Democrats. If anybody casts all their votes for their party only, who's the sheep? Weigh the issues.

America is too fascist. Well, if you've studied any history, then you about the Japanese internment camps. Women's suffrage? Blacks literally dying, fire-hosed, K-9 units attacking humans, all because they wanted equal treatment. Hippie is a broad term for some. The Hippie was a part of the 60's culture which I thought was just an excuse for a lot of people to do drugs and jump from sack to sack.

But, something different also happened in that the late 50's, throughout the 60's: Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King, Jr. If any of you've read/studied any MLK, Jr.: he wasn't for only integration, his message was also of all races, the human race. The problem: History and people drown out his MOST important message and forget about the human race message.

Your posts is really scattershot, and I'm trying to address all of your points while getting ready for work. So, I apologize if I miss some.

Re: JMS making cogent points.
You don't have all the info about Marvel Civil War. This is not an insult but fact. The latest issue of Wizard mag has coverage of the Marvel event. Jeph, Loeb, Buckley (Publisher), Joe Q, Bendis, Mark Millar, Joss Whedon, and Ed Brubaker are involved with Civil War; Millar is writing the actual comic. This method used at Marvel & DC is very similar to TV show episode writing. All of the show's writers meet and hammer/argue over an episode/story and come out with story beats/outline, and after all is said and done, they hand it off to one or sometimes two writers to write the script. DC comics has done this with Infinite Crisis. All the writers were involved with crafting IC, Geoff Johns then went away by his lonesome and hammered out the script, gave it back to the collective (Rucka, Waid, and some others I forget right now off the top of my head) for editing, critique, additional advice. Then

Love or hate Millar, you really can't blame him. IMO, I don't really care for Millar's writing. My LCS knows if Millar starts writing a comic, he knows to ask if I want to continue my subscription. However, Civil War does sound interesting. This doesn't mean that I subscribe to "hippies" or "liberals" or anybody.

Never seen or will watch "Day of Tomorrow."

Noble ideals don't equal reality. I agree. Expand and be more specific on this topic. In regards to...? Equal rights is a noble ideal. Peace is a noble ideal. The right of women & men & children to not be raped is an ideal. Not judging a book by its cover is an ideal. Be specific.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

I agree on this point: You're guessing. Some people believed Bush lied to America to get us into this present war, some don't. Criticizing the President or any policitician is not necessarily anti-American either; it depends on what people are pointing out. Dissent is the right of the people, BUT I don't always agree with what people are dissenting about; again, it depends on what's the dissent.

Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

I agree with you here, also. However, this aspect depends on readers b/c a story could have equal points presented, but everyone has their own personal filters; they could still perceive any story anyway they want.

Gee, I wonder which group will have actually valid reasons for their actions?

Well, they could be valid reasons. But, if it's a differing viewpoint would your own personal filters allow you to admit it's a valid reason? Honest question here, not trying to be condescending or anything. We don't know yet b/c they story hasn't published.

I've never been raped. If I heard a serial rapist moved next door, I'd complain. I do believe in track records.

I agree with you here. That's why I belong to the National Association to Protect Children (http://www.protect.org/index.shtml), a NON-PARTISAN political committee that focuses on changing laws on child sexual abuse. Many current state laws favor sexual predators. Some state laws allow judges way too much leeway in sentencing these psychopaths. Some states allow (too many) the child rapist (after only several months of jail) to have custody of their victim/victims upon release. There's a reality that doesn't equal any child's best interest. There's a Republican in my state trying to pass his bill to toughen up penalties for child sexual abuse. I support him. Remember, I'm not Republican.
************************************************** ********
It was actually dripping with condescension.

Your obviously coming into this late, but if you've read past exchanges with KV, he doesn't try discussion. His method is to insult others' POV's, make blanket statements about groups of people, and doesn't offer anything constructive.

Anyway, really gotta go to work. I tried addressing all of your points. I'm sure I missed some, though.

okay, now officially late for work.

**Jan** · 04-07-2006, 03:52 AM

Moving some posts from the comics forum so conversation can continue.

Jan
Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

**Jan** · 04-07-2006, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Der Mike

You have to, of course, assume JMS is capable of making a cogent and entertaining storyline involving differing viewpoints. Your faith is quite impressive, but it's not something I can remotely concur with.

Then I take it you don't give him credit as an atheist for generally treating religion thoughtfully and respectfully. Or providing the Shadows with a viewpoint instead of just making them eeevil. Or showing that both sides on the Earth civil war had valid reasons for what they did.

No. Representing conflicting views as having EQUAL VALUE makes a satisfying story.

What this will end up doing --- and this is a guess based largely on having read comics at all in my entire life --- is create straw men, have the President "lie" to "get us into a war", and proclaim that all people who criticize the President's critics are "calling critics un-American".

Talk about strawman arguments, those are some pretty detailed guesses considering you don't have any facts to base them on.

What, precisely, did the hippies accomplish?

Well, before they came along our government had the power to conscript young men, train them to be killers and send them off to die before they even had the power to vote. Of course, they can vote now but still not drink alcohol but that's a different conversation for another time.

Completely ruin the entire concept of universities? Check.

How so? I haven't noticed them being paralysed lately. But I don't follow the news closely. Did I miss a rash of university libraries being taken over recently?

Ruin relations between men and women, making them into, far too often, little more than sex romps rather than actual courtship? Check.

How did they do that? Hippies didn't invent effective birth control and the 'sexual revolution' (never liked that term) was inevitable once that came along.

Don't attempt to romanticize the hippies.

But don't attempt to demonize them, either.

They were undeniably sexist.

I don't follow your logic.

Undeniably rich, idle white boys for the most part.

I'm sure that's what hit the news. My experiences at the time were quite different. 'Rich' probably applies somewhat, though. Poor people don't have a lot of time to work for social change

Has led to social movements whose only real accomplishment is making permanent the poverty in the Third World.

That's a little vague for me. Details?

Spat on soldiers who went to Vietnam because they were ordered to do so.

That was bad. I'm so glad to see that at least that's changed with this war.

Became terrorists (the Weather Underground launched from somewhere)

Despite the press attention, the WUO was never more than a few hundred people. There was also some evidence that some of the more egregious actions were actually incited by infiltrators directed by the FBI.

So, please, enlighten me as to the "benefits" of the hippies. I'm quite curious.

They cared enough to work to change our society despite the fact that they had no official voice in it. They questioned authority and spotlighted areas where our govenrnent didn't live up to it's vaunted ideals. They tried new ways of communicating and thinking and involvement and politics and religion because the society they sprang from, while 'nice' on the surface, was a house of cards riddled with hypocracy.

Social change is rarely pretty but I'm glad I live now instead of in the 50's when 'nice people' didn't make waves.

Jan

**Der Mike** · 04-07-2006, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by manwithnoname

First, Limbaugh is a toe-the-line Republican. He just repeats the party line.

He has been quite critical of Bush's spending and his refusal to do squat about illegal immigration.

I'm not Republican or Democrat or Green Party. I've voted Republican in the past, as I've voted Democrat in the past. Why? I try to weigh their viewpoints on things. Offering blankets statements as "liberal" is making you just as guilty. I don't agree with liberals most of the time AND Republicans AND Democrats. If anybody casts all their votes for their party only, who's the sheep? Weigh the issues.

Re-read the post. I didn't say you were a liberal. I asked would you trust a conservative (Rush) to honestly discuss liberal issues. And the answer is no, you would not.

Well, if you've studied any history, then you about the Japanese internment camps.

Time for an inconvenient little fact: If the Japanese had ANYWHERE else to go away from the West Coast during WW II, they were permitted to go there. The camps were only for those who didn't have anywhere else to go.

And Germans and Italians were ALSO interned.

Women's suffrage?

Several states had it from the get-go.

Blacks literally dying, fire-hosed, K-9 units attacking humans, all because they wanted equal treatment.

Do you REALLY wish to compare the US at any point to an ACTUAL fascist country?

It doesn't seem you're familiar with what fascism brings.

All of the show's writers meet and hammer/argue over an episode/story and come out with story beats/outline, and after all is said and done, they hand it off to one or sometimes two writers to write the script.

When all of the writers are on the same page, they won't be hammering out a fair treatment of both sides.

Noble ideals don't equal reality. I agree. Expand and be more specific on this topic. In regards to...? Equal rights is a noble ideal. Peace is a noble ideal. The right of women & men & children to not be raped is an ideal. Not judging a book by its cover is an ideal. Be specific.

If you want those things and will do NOTHING to make it happen, then your ideal is useless.

You want peace? Then you have to PREPARE for war, to help make sure war doesn't break out. You want equal rights? Then realize that equal rights isn't going to lead to equal OUTCOMES. If you want an intelligent treatment of two differing viewpoints --- having TWO DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS WRITING IT might be of considerable assistance.

I agree on this point: You're guessing. Some people believed Bush lied to America to get us into this present war, some don't. Criticizing the President or any policitician is not necessarily anti-American either; it depends on what people are pointing out.

Words fail to fully express how utterly sick I am of this straw man argument.

Not ONE PERSON has EVER said that criticizing the gov't is "unpatriotic". Calling American soldiers "Nazis" (which Dems in Congress have done), saying that Bush is the biggest terrorist on Earth (which liberal activists say far too often) IS. There is a world of difference between "The US plan for Iraq is faulty" and openly rooting for defeat.

It was actually dripping with condescension.

Your obviously coming into this late, but if you've read past exchanges with KV, he doesn't try discussion. His method is to insult others' POV's, make blanket statements about groups of people, and doesn't offer anything constructive.

I've dealt with KV far more than anybody else here has --- yes, I mean anybody else. And if you aren't condescending towards him, his posts don't tend to be sarcastic. You write high-handed posts treating all who disagree as if they were idiots and he's going to be significantly less than pleasant towards you.

Then I take it you don't give him credit as an atheist for generally treating religion thoughtfully and respectfully. Or providing the Shadows with a viewpoint instead of just making them eeevil. Or showing that both sides on the Earth civil war had valid reasons for what they did.

I didn't find his take on religion to be offensive --- nor was it terribly well-enlightened. "Un-offensive" and "well thought out" are not the same.

Talk about strawman arguments, those are some pretty detailed guesses considering you don't have any facts to base them on.

I have history on my side. If I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to say I was wrong.

But when I'm right, I expect the same.

Well, before they came along our government had the power to conscript young men, train them to be killers and send them off to die before they even had the power to vote. Of course, they can vote now but still not drink alcohol but that's a different conversation for another time.

You can blame the Constitution for the draft. As for why the age of drinking is what it is --- considering how incredibly irresponsible kids are with alcohol, I wouldn't lower it, either.

How so? I haven't noticed them being paralysed lately. But I don't follow the news closely. Did I miss a rash of university libraries being taken over recently?

Intellectual discipline has been replaced by blatant radical politics. Non-intellectual fields (specifically, referring to African-American studies, Women's studies, Gay studies, etc.) are now degree programs. There are few places in the country where somebody is LESS free to speak freely than on a college campus. Bachelor's degrees are effectively meaningless as colleges give degrees for just about anything. You have complete whackjobs of weak intellectual merit in positions where they cannot be fired and they, in turn, become LESS intellectually diligent. They create an echo chamber by preventing differing viewpoints from getting hired.

Universities have become jokes that one must attend to fully understand how ridiculous the entire concept is.

How did they do that? Hippies didn't invent effective birth control and the 'sexual revolution' (never liked that term) was inevitable once that came along.

Hippies championed the insane belief that women can be just as fulfilled with empty sexual relationships, which has been a disaster for women.

I don't follow your logic.

Women were --- and this going to be crude, but honest --- holes for the boys to shoot their load in. Nothing more. Women were not taken seriously by the hippies, never given the "power" in the hippie movement, etc. It was a male-dominated group and the women were second-class whose only use, as far as the hippies were concerned, was to lay back and spread their legs.

That's a little vague for me. Details?

The only thing the global warming cause has led to is to make permanent the poverty in the Third World. Asking them to develop without pollution is an impossibility, so they won't be able to develop. They effectively banned DDT (getting the gov't to decree that any country who uses it loses all foreign aid from us) and that led to a startling increase in malaria. They fight "genetically engineered" food, even though it can do more to eliminate starvation than anything else. They fought against nuclear power, which is still, by far, the cheapest form of power out there --- and easily the safest (more people died in W. Va mines this year than have died in the US nuclear power industry in its entire existence combined).

Despite the press attention, the WUO was never more than a few hundred people. There was also some evidence that some of the more egregious actions were actually incited by infiltrators directed by the FBI.

Their size is immaterial. The groups that bombed abortion clinics were small. I didn't see THEIR crimes diminished due to their small size.

And some evidence that the FBI was behind the bombings and all would be nice. I can name names of Weather Underground people who DID the bombings and bragged when they were released from prison about it.

They cared enough to work to change our society despite the fact that they had no official voice in it.

"Cared"? Please. They were watching out for their own butts. Moment college students stopped getting drafted, they stopped "caring" about others.

And, ANYBODY who would praise Mao, or Che, or Ho Chi Minh doesn't care about a soul.

They questioned authority and spotlighted areas where our govenrnent didn't live up to it's vaunted ideals.

And they became undeniable hypocrites in the process. And "questioning authority" isn't always "good".

Timothy McVeigh "questioned authority". I don't see that sub-human monkey lionized.

They tried new ways of communicating and thinking and involvement and politics and religion because the society they sprang from, while 'nice' on the surface, was a house of cards riddled with hypocracy.

But they were even MORE hypocritical. The "free speech" movement has led to repressive speech codes on college campuses. Their search for "truth" has led to the blacklisting of conservative voices in the professorship on universities (studies clearly show how utterly unrepresented conservatives are).

Social change is rarely pretty but I'm glad I live now instead of in the 50's when 'nice people' didn't make waves.

Except nothing the hippies did led to that. The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies. The feminist movement, which has done every inch as much as harm as good, has become a laughingstock.

The US would have been better off if the Boomers didn't become the most self-important generation the world has ever seen.
-=Mike

**Karachi Vyce** · 04-07-2006, 10:24 AM

Maybe here would be a good time to explain my post in the other thread directed at jahkneebee.

Quite frankly, it was to express my disbelief that someone would be so outraged at ZHD's hippy comments that they would actually write a five paragraph post full of righteous indignation, lecturing on how hippies are true patriotic Americans.

You know, maybe they are. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone would take his comments SO FUCKING SERIOUSLY as to have such a fit over what he said. I mean, Jesus. I don't know if people here are just that sensitive or if they just take things way more seriously than they ever should or what.

**Dr Maturin** · 04-07-2006, 10:33 AM

1. It's "hippie," not "hippy"
2. Agreed with Vyce. It's somewhat ironic that we get a longwinded post on the tolerance that hippies showed while at the same time attacking my adjectival use of the word, which is something I do all of the time. Something from a little movie called "Full Metal Jacket."
3. Vyce needs to do something to get all of his aggression out.

**manwithnoname** · 04-07-2006, 03:24 PM

[QUOTE=Der Mike]He has been quite critical of Bush's spending and his refusal to do squat about illegal immigration.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Okay.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Re-read the post. I didn't say you were a liberal. I asked would you trust a conservative (Rush) to honestly discuss liberal issues. And the answer is no, you would not.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The way I perceived your posts: you were lumping non-conservatives as liberals, which I disagree with. Okay, now understood.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Time for an inconvenient little fact: If the Japanese had ANYWHERE else to go away from the West Coast during WW II, they were permitted to go there. The camps were only for those who didn't have anywhere else to go.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The Poet Laureate of Oregon may disagree with you on this one; he's Japanese. He and his family didn't have a choice. Japanese businesses and houses were seized by the government, then were told to relocate.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And Germans and Italians were ALSO interned.[QUOTE=Der Mike]
Okay.

I addressed these points b/c your post sounded to me like many American voices: Dissenting is unpatriotic.
American's dissenting, like I said, depends on what they're dissenting on. Dissenting just to dissent is something I disagree with.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Do you REALLY wish to compare the US at any point to an ACTUAL fascist country?[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Actually, you were the one to mention America as becoming fascist for Capt America to relocate to Canada.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]It doesn't seem you're familiar with what fascism brings.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

dictionary definition of FASCISM: a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, ect.
When all of the writers are on the same page, they won't be hammering out a fair treatment of both sides.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]If you want those things and will do NOTHING to make it happen, then your ideal is useless.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree, wholeheartedly.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]You want peace? Then you have to PREPARE for war, to help make sure war doesn't break out. You want equal rights? Then realize that equal rights isn't going to lead to equal OUTCOMES. If you want an intelligent treatment of two differing viewpoints --- having TWO DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS WRITING IT might be of considerable assistance.[QUOTE=Der Mike]
As mentioned before, NONE of us here or anyone outside of Marvel has read the comic. But, people here are already tearing the story to shreds b/c of their personal dislike of Millar. Remember, I don't really like his writing either, but the story sounds controversial & interesting. In previous posts, posters here took the word 'controversial' and equated it to sucking.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Not ONE PERSON has EVER said that criticizing the gov't is "unpatriotic". Calling American soldiers "Nazis" (which Dems in Congress have done), saying that Bush is the biggest terrorist on Earth (which liberal activists say far too often) IS. There is a world of difference between "The US plan for Iraq is faulty" and openly rooting for defeat.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Well, I get the newspaper delivered to me everyday. Their are columnists and regular people and in Congress saying specifically which you are refuting: Criticizing the government is unpatriotic. Now, I don't agree with anybody calling American soldiers "Nazis" b/c I'm a veteran of the first Gulf War.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]I've dealt with KV far more than anybody else here has --- yes, I mean anybody else. And if you aren't condescending towards him, his posts don't tend to be sarcastic. You write high-handed posts treating all who disagree as if they were idiots and he's going to be significantly less than pleasant towards you.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Huh? I've posted about story "A" that I liked. KV would say it sucked b/c of such and such. I said, "okay." That's your opinion. Then KV would not stop about why the story sucked and could not accept that somebody did like a story he didn't like. His posts DID contain condescending comments and snide remarks. My main point to KV about disliking or liking any story is that it's a personal opinion. If you like a story that I dislike, well, so be it. I'm not going to try to beat out your liking of a story and make you agree with me. My exchanges with him have been like this. Come on, if we each give reasons why we like/dislike a story and, in the end, still hold our opinion of a story, well then, that's it. But, that's not okay with him. KV: "B/C I hate that story, I will not stop until you hate that story too." This is how he comes across.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Non-intellectual fields (specifically, referring to African-American studies, Women's studies, Gay studies, etc.) are now degree programs.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Now, I agree with you here, but in the area of African-American studies I disagree. Why? It's not taught as American history whatsoever. I feel it should be taught, folded in with, as American history, not African-American history. Even in college American History courses too much is left out about African-American history. So, this is what is out there.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Bachelor's degrees are effectively meaningless as colleges give degrees for just about anything. You have complete whackjobs of weak intellectual merit in positions where they cannot be fired and they, in turn, become LESS intellectually diligent. They create an echo chamber by preventing differing viewpoints from getting hired.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree with you here. I can't believe how many people have a bachelor's degree that have terrible grammar, spelling and vocabulary. Too many people use the word "boughtn'," as the past tense of "buy."

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And some evidence that the FBI was behind the bombings and all would be nice. I can name names of Weather Underground people who DID the bombings and bragged when they were released from prison about it.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

The Weather Underground acts were and still despicable. I think Jan was trying to say that you were making blanket statements about a whole group of people. Saying, "All Dems are demons." Or, "All Republicans are unintelligent." Or, "All Liberals are destructive." These are blanket statements. I believe we need all of these groups to balance everything out. All groups have good and bad ideas/approaches. Big reason why I don't vote any party line.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]"Cared"? Please. They were watching out for their own butts. Moment college students stopped getting drafted, they stopped "caring" about others.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]And, ANYBODY who would praise Mao, or Che, or Ho Chi Minh doesn't care about a soul.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I agree. In Ho Chi Minh case, I'm not saying he was an angel, however he did petition twice to the current American President at the time for assistance. The President decided to side with the French. Which I understood why America sided with the French: Many of the upper class and politicians were European educated, strong ties to France and Europe in general. Who're these Asians we don't know from Adam (or Nguyen, if you want). Basically, all Vietnam wanted to do was gain independence from France; this was the same situation in colonial America trying to break away from English rule. In history class, we were shown two letters written by Ho Chi Minh (educated in Europe, by the way) asking the American President for help. B/C America was unwilling to help, he turned to a country that did offer help, which turned out to be communist. I don't agree with him joining communists, but try to see it from a different POV: solicit help from a Democratic Government and get denied, twice. You're still faced with attempting to liberate your country. They didn't teach this part in high school history.

The best source is Vietnam Vets who've gone back to Vietnam and talked with their Vietnamese enemies, and actually formed sincere friendships.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]Timothy McVeigh "questioned authority". I don't see that sub-human monkey lionized.[QUOTE=Der Mike]

I pointed the Nationa Alliance out b/c they're a terrorist organization that's American born and don't wear turbans. That was the only point.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]But they were even MORE hypocritical. The "free speech" movement has led to repressive speech codes on college campuses. Their search for "truth" has led to the blacklisting of conservative voices in the professorship on universities (studies clearly show how utterly unrepresented conservatives are).[QUOTE=Der Mike]

Political correctness is not good. I like somebody to be honest to my face than lie to me. I'd rather know their true feelings.

[QUOTE=Der Mike]The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies.

Originally posted by Der Mike

-=Mike

I just pointed that out b/c your post came across as lumping the hippie movement with the Civil Rights Movement. A mere misunderstanding that's all.

This is what I would call a discussion of ideas. So, if you feel I've been condescending, please let me know. I wasn't trying to condescend.

I don't have the whole quote thing down, Jan. Please instruct me how to do the quoting thing and then have my reply follow. I'm sure my post is a headache to read.

**Jan** · 04-07-2006, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Der Mike

You can blame the Constitution for the draft. As for why the age of drinking is what it is --- considering how incredibly irresponsible kids are with alcohol, I wouldn't lower it, either.

Then wouldn't it be more fair to raise the eligibility to be drafted to the same age? After all, if they can't be deemed responsible enough to take a drink, how can they be deemed eligible to kill people? How can they be deemed mature enough to live with that killing for the rest of their lives. Or have you never run across a 'Nam vet who still has flashbacks years, even decades later?

Hippies championed the insane belief that women can be just as fulfilled with empty sexual relationships, which has been a disaster for women.

What on Earth do you think the hippy movement was about? Hint: It sure as hell wasn't organized enough to have any kind of agenda like that.

With the advent of safe, reliable birth control, it was inevitable that women would suddenly discover how freeing it was to not have to worry about a life sentence every time they said "Yes", that they wouldn't have to worry about getting shackled to somebody over a hot date. That had nothing to do with hippies and everything to do with medical advances.

Women were --- and this going to be crude, but honest --- holes for the boys to shoot their load in. Nothing more. Women were not taken seriously by the hippies, never given the "power" in the hippie movement, etc. It was a male-dominated group and the women were second-class whose only use, as far as the hippies were concerned, was to lay back and spread their legs.

And you came to this conclusion how? Because it sure wasn't like that among those who I knew. Even if it were, how would that be any different from every other male at that time? IME, what actually ended up happening was that real communication between two people could take place once the obsession with sex was out of the way. And because hippies were generally into learning about themselves, most of the men were more than happy to help a woman discover her...er...centers of pleasure.

Can it be that people have forgotten that back then there was no concept of spousal rape? That if a woman got pregnant she either ended up in a forced marriage OR left town to 'recover' from some mythical illness OR found a back alley butcher to terminate her pregnancy. Hippies had nothing to do with the incredible freedom the birth control pill gave. And like many who've been repressed for a long time, they went a little crazy exploring the newfound freedom.

The only thing the global warming cause has led to is to make permanent the poverty in the Third World. Asking them to develop without pollution is an impossibility, so they won't be able to develop. They effectively banned DDT (getting the gov't to decree that any country who uses it loses all foreign aid from us) and that led to a startling increase in malaria. They fight "genetically engineered" food, even though it can do more to eliminate starvation than anything else. They fought against nuclear power, which is still, by far, the cheapest form of power out there --- and easily the safest (more people died in W. Va mines this year than have died in the US nuclear power industry in its entire existence combined).

I think you've gone off of hippies here. Hate to tell you, but that movement's dead. Others may have taken that place but it ain't hippies.

Their size is immaterial. The groups that bombed abortion clinics were small. I didn't see THEIR crimes diminished due to their small size.

Except that you painted all hippies with that brush. The shoe doesn't fit.

And they became undeniable hypocrites in the process. And "questioning authority" isn't always "good".

Never said it was. But it's not always bad, nor hypocritical.

Except nothing the hippies did led to that. The civil rights movement had virtually nothing to do with the hippies. The feminist movement, which has done every inch as much as harm as good, has become a laughingstock.

And where did anybody say that "the hippies" claimed credit for either? That's part of the point here. It was a time of social unrest *and still is*. The pendulum has to swing both ways before society settles into newer ways. The conversation started when ZD refered to "hippie garbage" without defining his meaning except that he didn't like the idea of Capt. America breaking with the US.

The US would have been better off if the Boomers didn't become the most self-important generation the world has ever seen.
-=Mike

Every generation gets its chance.

Jan

**Karachi Vyce** · 04-07-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller

3. Vyce needs to do something to get all of his aggression out.

I'm sure I'll be grudge f!cking that girl I'm seeing at some point this weekend, perhaps tomorrow evening. The one we talked about the other day.

Hmm. I wonder if that comment will be edited.

**David Panzer** · 04-07-2006, 06:25 PM

You appear to now be speaking in some kind of cryptic code or perhaps Martian language. "f!cking"?

**Jan** · 04-07-2006, 07:11 PM

He means fucking, WillieStealAndHow. And Vyce? Read the Rules and Guidelines and you won't have to wonder any longer. As DougO says, just don't be too rude or vulgar. My call. Any other questions?

Jan
FNM

**David Panzer** · 04-07-2006, 07:24 PM

I know what it means, I was just having fun

**Jan** · 04-07-2006, 07:29 PM

I know. It just seemed to be a good opportunity to give an example. I do feel sorry for that girl, though. Eeew.

Jan

**David Panzer** · 04-07-2006, 07:37 PM

They do sell body condoms

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