The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

Oh, I see. You make some [Edit] comments, I smack them down (providing a website that has copious footnotes and documented info to back it all up), and then you come back and act now as if you're above the "discussion." [Edit]

In the immortal words of my second favourite Scot, Groundskeeper Willie: "Damn Scots! THEY RUINED SCOTLAND!"

(You can guess my favorite Scot, LiM)

Individuals should revisit their posting histories before making sweeping statements regarding the nature of replying posts.

You posted one more or less coherenent reply (all be it flawed and riddled with insults) that much I'll grant you.

I concede all heartedly that there had been a large minority of Jews living in Palestine before WWII (living largely a peaceful co-existance with the Arab Palestinians until the 1930's) and that subsequent settlers improved the land. This however doesn't justify seizing more than half a country and importing millions of people there to make a state, which wouldn't exist without American backing and European cultural guilt.

A partition IS an invasion. The Nazi's partitioned France occupied the North and installed a puppet government in the South. The French Resistance planted bombs which blew up German's and French alike. In the current climate they would be seen as a terrorist group. History remembers them as freedom fighters and national heroes.

If Israel isn't targeting civilians why are so many dying? Why are so many Beirut apartment buildings in ruins or riddled with bullet holes? Why is the Lebanon being targetted at all? Surely criminals should be pursued through co-operating with the Lebanese government and if they don't co-operate international law should come into play.

The problem is after the World Wars the UN and international law was mean't to prevent the invasion of sovereign states and promote peaceful negotiation between countries in dispute with each other. World Governments give lip service to International law but ignore it when it's convieniant to do so.

Israel invades Palestine, China invades Tibet, Russia invades Chechnya, the US and her allies invade Iraq and all of them claim the moral high ground and make bewildered complaints when some fight back.

In the middle are the majority who wouldn't give a damn about these empire building schemes if they weren't being bombed or turned into refugees by combatants on all sides.

Closer to my home, successive British Governments maintained pressure on paramilitary groups within the North of Ireland to little if no effect. The current political situation may have reached a stale mate but the majority of people in region are getting on with their lives without the fear of bombs and bullets interupting their lives.

The ceasefires came from the Paramilitary groups realising their actions weren't getting them anywhere and the Governments of Ireland and the UK being brave enough to step down from party dogma and sit around a table and try and talk.

The Islamic terrorists want Israel to bomb Muslims. This is where they get their recruits from. They fire rockets at Israel because they know that instead of recognising the sovereign rights of the Lebanon and help them weed out the criminal element they will come in guns ablazing and kill the very people they should be trying to get on their side.

The terrorists get their power from keeping their countries in ruins and Israel is giving them all the recruits and support they need.

Perhaps instead of blowing up bridges Israel should build bridges by lending support to their neighbours.

As for the Scottish I find them to be a wonderfully tolerant and polite people who put up with their less civilised neighbours with great dignity and grace.
As someone who isn't Scottish but lives in Scotland I have nothing to gain from bringing these admirable qualities to the attention of the people on these boards.

And I'm more than critical of those who run and ruin the country of my birth.

[Edit - effective immediately and until I change my mind, all personal comments will be edited out. --Jan]

[phazedout]

My (admitedly flawed) understanding of the situation regarding Hesbulla (not sure of spelling, sorry) and the lebanese government is that the HB got the isralis out of lebannon, which the lebanese army failed to do and as a result they have a representative on the Lebonese cabinet who is
a) Not elected - and therefore cannot be removed by democratic process
and
b) not answerable to the legitimtely elected lebonese governemnt.
Now I'll qulaify that by sayiong I got this second hand form a friend of mine working in th eIRish government (foreigh affairs section) so he (and thereofre I) may have been misnformed.
That said, if this situation is correct it does make it rather difficult to pursue them through legitimate chnnels when they are privy to all internal government business and can take action to warn their members before anything happens to them.
That said it doesn't warrant the targeting of civillians, but bombs tend not to care who they kill and are rather an indicriminate weapon.
In war it is the innocent who are always the first (or at least the most prminent) to die. The guilty are usually hiding in fortefied bunkers while the ordinary people bear the brunt of their actions. I'll leave you with one of my favourite Asimov quotes
Alan
on the "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" ID
P.S. serious issue, I'll use my real name, fandom I'll use an Alias

[Dr Maturin]

Ya know, there is something to be said for the distaste inherent in double standards. Nary has there been anything intelligent posted in this thread for over two years, my posts and some others excepted, of course (and no, I am not just talking about my "kewl" wrestling friends). Those people whom I at least respect have received PMs from me in the past.

I've been called all sorts of things on these forums, been accused of using a "gimmick account" to post racist messages, and have even received nasty PMs from those who didn't like my beliefs. The people from the opposite side of the spectrum who actually know what they're talking about don't post very often, and I tire of the arguments which either consist of typical liberal, "war is not the answer"-type rhetoric, or simple strategies which try to discredit me by calling me names, all the while avoiding addressing the issue at hand, whatever it may be.

This thread, I believe, has more posts than any other thread in these forums. That tells you how hot politics are. Intelligent discussion has always been a rare commodity here, but it's sunken to new lows as of late. The idiocy on display here is truly remarkable, so I would like to announce that I will be withdrawing from this thread indefinitely. Of course, I will still come around to check for news on JMS (but seeing as how he will no longer be posting on the newsgroups, there won't be too much need to visit often) and perhaps participate in B5 and comic discussions.

Enjoy your leftist circle jerk.

[Karachi Vyce]

Don't be that way, LiM. I'll still post here. Someone has to stick around and piss everyone off whenever they get in their little leftist circle jerks.

[David Panzer]

Speaking as an independent, it'd be a relief for the entire "right vs. left" shit in this thread to end.

[frulad]

I like pie. Don't we all?








(Just looking for something to unite us all...)

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

I like pie. Don't we all?

What's the filling?

[frulad]

Chocolate!

Yuuummmm.......

[David Panzer]

I like chess pie, key lime pie, cherry pie, apple pie, rhubarb pie, lemon merange pie (however the hell it's spelt)...

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

Cherry or Pecan mmmmmm.

[Jan]

Peach, cherry, apple or pecan all warm, all with vanilla ice cream. Apple, wam again with cinnamon ice cream.

Hmm... the restaurant attached to my hotel has pies.

Jan

[Shr'eshhhhhh]

All we are saying is give pies a chance.

[frulad]

Warm Pecan pie with a huge scoop of cold freshly whiped cream.


I expect a full report on the pies, Jan.

[David Panzer]

As much as I love pie, cheesecake is the shit yo.

[Shadow-Sentient]

Enjoy your leftist circle jerk.

One last parting shot to demonstrate how 'above the fray' we are?

Politics are a hot-point in this country right now. We have all been divided and are on our way to being conquered. Our civil liberties are in jeaporady and our very way of life is threatened on a daily basis.

The best way to do this, is to create an 'us versus them' type of mentality. Instead of being able to focus on our similarities, pundits, politicians, spinsters, et. al have slyly forced us to focus on our differences and nothing else. This alone is what made me become an Independant and why I refuse to play that game. Yeah, I lean left but I also hold some conservative ideals as well ... but you probably wouldn't know that if I said I was a Democrat. In fact, you'd make all of the assumptions that have been made by people trying to pigeon-hole me into a category that they can use to their argumentative advantage. In fact you would assume that I don't believe in war as an answer ... but you'd be wrong. Sometimes, war is unavoidable ... other times it is completely avoidable. Afghanistan in my opinion was a war that we had to fight, Bin Laden was there and so was Al Queida. Iraq, in my opinion, was not a war we ever needed to fight. It was a distraction and the real enemy has gotten away. Yep, he's still out there.
So, the assumption would be incorrect.
You might think I am for gun control.
Well, you'd be partially right. I like guns. I want to own some. If zombies ever attack, I don't want just this damn sword and baseball bat! But I don't feel that assault weapons capable of reducing a human being into a pile of hamburger should be on the market for your average beer-swilling, wife-beater wearing, Postal Employee either.
So, the assumption would still be incorrect.
You might assume that I'm for abortion. Well, I am pro-choice. But not because I believe in abortion. In fact, I would never choose abortion as an answer ... but I am not so arrogant as to enforce my beliefs on the rest of the world either and believe that freedom and choice are more important than pushing my own personal agenda on other citizens.
So, the assumption would be incorrect.
You might assume that I agree with 'tax and spend'. However, I believe in fiscal responsibility. something I very much empathized with Republican's on before this President. GW is drunk at the mall with our Great Grandchildren's credit card in my opinion ... he's the least fiscally responsible President we've ever had ... so I can no longer relate on this issue. Lower taxes during war? Spend up a Multi Trillion dollar debt? Who is this guy Monty Hall?
So, the assumption would again be incorrect.

So, you might actually have something in common with a "leftist-circkle-jerker" and not even know it. However, you're too busy focusing on our differences and not our similarities. Even though I was not in the bickering you are referring to, your comments destroyed your credibility of being above the fray, you know not being 'insulting' or "making intelligent posts" and inspired me to communicate.

The point of most political discussions I have seen from both perspectives is to stale-mate arguments ... it's not even to win. If you stale-mate an argument, you can muddle the truth so much that no one knows what to believe anymore. That is mostly what I have read in this political forum. Stale-mate. I feel these debates should be more aimed at gaining perspective and not trying to insult, or debase each other.

Anyway, getting your feelings hurt and stomping away pouting is not going to gain you any points either. Truly, I may not agree with your point(s) of view (or maybe I do) but I believe that your views have every right to be heard as anyone elses. Do you have to participate in political debate? No... but you don't have to talk to people at all really. If you ever want your opinion to be heard, expect that someone will take issue with it at some point and that they will try to debate you on it. Even if they don't engage in the debate how you like, at least the discussion is being had and you have an opportunity to see something from a perspective you may not have considered ... even if it's completely moronic.