The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Dr Maturin]

She presented those omissions as necessary lies to obtain refugee status. Asylum seekers are expected to seek shelter in the first safe country they come to, and she would have been automatically deported if she had owned up to spending more than a decade outside Somalia, in Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Kenya and, briefly, Germany.

I want to hear some bitching about Holland's deportation laws.

And, Jan, this stuff came to a head because radical Islam's foothold in Holland is getting stronger and stronger. She's been under guard for a few years now.

We welcome such a courageous person here in OUR country.

[Jan]

I want to hear some bitching about Holland's deportation laws.

I can't say that I know enough about them to bitch. It doesn't seem outrageous for them to require that somebody seeking sanctuary from a country actually have been in that country recently.

And, Jan, this stuff came to a head because radical Islam's foothold in Holland is getting stronger and stronger. She's been under guard for a few years now.

Was Van Gogh under that same kind of guard? What evidence is there that radical Islamicists might be behind this? My understanding is that a memeber of her own party is behind the 'investigation'.

We welcome such a courageous person here in OUR country.

Does she have permission to stay here already? I'm asking for the sake of information, btw, not to foment any heat into the discussion.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

I can't say that I know enough about them to bitch. It doesn't seem outrageous for them to require that somebody seeking sanctuary from a country actually have been in that country recently.

Yeah, but the point was that the USA is held to the highest "moral" standards when it comes to immigration, illegal or not, while big critics like Mexico dole out hard justice on their own southern border.

Was Van Gogh under that same kind of guard? What evidence is there that radical Islamicists might be behind this? My understanding is that a memeber of her own party is behind the 'investigation'.

Nobody said they were "behind" it, but the nation's leaders are chickenshit and are kowtowing to them. It's not a direct involvement. But, who knows, there may have been some very real threats involved, too.

Does she have permission to stay here already? I'm asking for the sake of information, btw, not to foment any heat into the discussion.

Megan will let us know.

[Towelmaster]

"Under different circumstances this would have been a survivable scandal. But Hirsi Ali's party, the Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie, has a draconian stance on illegal immigration which includes deportation for anyone who lies in their citizenship or asylum applications. The irony is delighting Hirsi Ali's enemies - it might give pause to Dutch politicians who have swung wildly to the right on immigration policy."

Indeed. This was completely unnecessary. Politics at it's finest hour.

[Der Mike]

"Under different circumstances this would have been a survivable scandal. But Hirsi Ali's party, the Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie, has a draconian stance on illegal immigration which includes deportation for anyone who lies in their citizenship or asylum applications. The irony is delighting Hirsi Ali's enemies - it might give pause to Dutch politicians who have swung wildly to the right on immigration policy."

Indeed. This was completely unnecessary. Politics at it's finest hour.

Even odder since she admitted to it, repeatedly, for about 4 years now.

It has JUST become an issue for the idiots in her party?
-=Mike

[Towelmaster]

No, nobody in the Netherlands even thinks that this is a moslim-plot to get to AHA, except for the most paranoid right-wing conspiracy-types. The moslims don't have to do a thing; the dutch government is quite capable of behaving ridiculously small-minded. Although I have no doubt that there will be some sniggering in some mosques.

The case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali only became an issue(again) after a left-wing tv-program dug it all up again. and the right-wing minister of Immigration and Integration felt she had to be a hard-liner. Against the wishes of even her own(conservative) party. And most definitely against the wishes of the left-wing parties, all the way up to those 1,2 communists in the Netherlands. Hirsi Ali is not liked by many, but respected by almost all.

This is a non-issue; AHA(sorry; Ayaan Hirsi Ali) lied as so many refugees did in those days. It wasn't classy, but it was 9 years ago. In the meantime no one can deny that she has become a part of the dutch political discussion as a person who is fervently against the extremes of the Islam. Too rabid at times, and that made her a controversial person over here. Love her or hate her. I personally think that every now and then she goes completely over the top and this damages the rest of her position. On the other hand ; freedom of speech is freedom of speech, so live with it.


The problem that this minister Verdonk caused for herself is that, for three years now, she has been incredibly though on illegal immigration. The Mexico-discussion in America is mild by comparison. This has made her popular with a part of the dutch population, mainly the poor people and the right-wingers who want everybody out, but it has also made her very impopular with the rest.
She is splitting up the country along legal/illegal lines, and she has definitely divided the country on this issue. Her whole reputation is based on her though stance. Two weeks ago she threw an 17-year old lady-student out of the country because 'it was safe enough to go back to Kosovo'. The fact that they sent her back to Serbia(!) went a bit unnoticed, although that is a completely different country. The fact that the girl had been studying in the Netherlands for 7 years and was about to graduate meant nothing. The fact that she spoke perfect dutch meant nothing. The fact that she really wanted to stay and live in Holland and felt dutch meant nothing. The law is the law, according to this minister. Any flexibility should be literally built in that law because she doesn't have any. She is not called Iron Rita for nothing.

In the meantime I have watched the debate about this decision on tv, and I can say with complete certainty that the Dutch members of Congres are not amused in the least. They have basically ordered the minister to quit fucking around and get this sorted out as soon as possible.

I understand that the whole world is now running to condemn the Netherlands. But this was a solo-operation from a minister who is also trying to get elected as the new party-leader... And don't believe those 'polls' any more then you believe American polls, they are coloured to say the least.

Politics at its finest. I'm glad I didn't vote for this government.

Update : And btw: Yes, AHA still has bodyguards supplied by the government. And in an incredible Catch-22 she is also still dutch for at least another six weeks though apparently she never was dutch in the first place. Aspirines anyone?

My guess is that she'll be dutch forever - if she still wants to be. I don't really care. I think she is trouble where ever she goes. Switching political parties, dumping her current one, not serving her full term as a member of parliament because she can go to the States, not doing anything at all as a member of parliament anyway(she was/is always to busy giving speeches), etcetera. She (ab-)used the Netherlands just as much as the Netherlands (ab-)used her. That was always the heart of the relationship.

And I do not forget that it was Theo van Gogh who made 'submission' the movie that it was, and it was Theo who died for it. Not Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
She is not the only one with the 'watch out for the islam'-message in the Netherlands. It feels like the world outside the Netherlands thinks she is the only one.

[Dr Maturin]

I don't think it's extreme to want to deport all illegal immigrants. It would be extreme to want to deport all immigrants, legal or not. If I could press a button that would magically deport all illegals, I'd do it in a hot second. I am tired of hearing the "breaking up of families" stories. Folks, these people broke the law. Do we refrain from sending people to prison because they'd be taken away from their families?

[Towelmaster]

As Hirsi Ali already stated in the New York Times :

"The cowardice of the dutch is becoming more and more apparent to me, and I am beginning to understand why so few gypsies, jews en homosexuals were 'saved' during WW II."

This, while she was still a full member of parliament representing the same people she was slagging off.

I'm saying, she ain't no saint and don't count on gratitude.

This does not alter the fact that this is all one big sloppy mess.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with sending illegal aliens back. But when that goes so far as to evict a family in Amsterdam from their own(!) home, after they have lived here for 12 years, running a small tailor-shop, is beyond me. Taxes paid and all.
In fact : when this family was sent 'back', there were private initiatives to get money together so they could start over.

So that quote from AHA up there, I don't think it is the truth and I don't think it is polite. Freedom of speech, darn...

[Der Mike]

In Ali's defense --- losing a court case and being forced to move because your neighbors felt "scared" would not endear much of anybody to me, either.

I do think the Dutch made a huge mistake in, apparently, not doing a lot about the murder of Van Gogh (if they did anything, I'd like to know --- I know of nothing, so I could be wrong). I assume her faith in the country effectively died with that alone.
-=Mike

[Dr Maturin]

Well, the "right wing" "left wing" Terminology is inherently false, as politics is much more complex. But here in Austria "right wing" means isolationistic, afraid/agressive to foreigners, Nationalistic, etc.

They say it means that here, too, but they're wrong here and they're wrong there. Nazism was born from leftist economic policies. The KKK is called "right wing" here. That is not correct.

The extreme right is ready to use violence and denies minorities and foreigners their right to exist. So in our (austria) view Nazi-Germany was an extreme right nation.

You base your view on them as the "extreme right" by assuming that the extreme right believe in such a thing.

So yes, we (most intelectuals) consider right as evil.

Yeah, we know. We have something called liberal college professors in the USA.

And also: the same (political) field which spawns hatemongers (in regards to foreigners) also is *very* conservative. They overlap. That doesn't mean that every Conservative is an Faschist/Nazi, see the statement at the beginning about insufficient definition of "right" and "left".

Heh, in the USA, the Democrat Party spawned the KKK. It is not conservative by any means.

So, was Stalin left or right, in your opinion? 8-)

Far leftist.

[manwithnoname]

The KKK is called "right wing" here. That is not correct.
Heh, in the USA, the Democrat Party spawned the KKK. It is not conservative by any means.

Hello. Me, again.

I haven't followed the whole thread here (lots of pages!), just reading from page 70 and on.

I certainly don't view the KKK as right wing. They are racists. And, racists of all kinds inhabit all political groups and all races.

I don't trust the left wing nor right wing; opposite sides of the same coin: pointing fingers (well versed in this), use the same political techniques that benefit their agenda(s), building momentum/power for their "causes" or "resolutions," and all the while lining their pockets with much $$.

Note: America gave asylum to many Nazis fleeing Germany. Many were employed by the US government.

Note: Pol Pot, leader of the Khmer Rouge, massacred millions of Cambodians. He wasn't right wing. He was just evil.

In Oregon, our primary election (Governor and other local seats) results have been counted. I'm not Democrat or Republican. I try to educate myself as much as I can on candidates' views. The Democrat candidate I was rooting for doesn't get to represent his party. The Republican candidate I was rooting (Kevin Mannix) for came in second, so he won't represent his party in the Governor's race. If Mannix had won, I felt he had a good chance to win the general election. We currently have a democratic governor, but I don't like what's been happening. Although I did like his predecessor, who happened to be a Democrat.

[Karachi Vyce]

What a surprise, look what the Muslims in Iran are up to now.

Chris Wattie
National Post

Friday, May 19, 2006

Human rights groups are raising alarms over a new law passed by the Iranian parliament that would require the country's Jews and Christians to wear coloured badges to identify them and other religious minorities as non-Muslims.

"This is reminiscent of the Holocaust," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "Iran is moving closer and closer to the ideology of the Nazis."

Iranian expatriates living in Canada yesterday confirmed reports that the Iranian parliament, called the Islamic Majlis, passed a law this week setting a dress code for all Iranians, requiring them to wear almost identical "standard Islamic garments."

The law, which must still be approved by Iran's "Supreme Guide" Ali Khamenehi before being put into effect, also establishes special insignia to be worn by non-Muslims.

Iran's roughly 25,000 Jews would have to sew a yellow strip of cloth on the front of their clothes, while Christians would wear red badges and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear blue cloth.

"There's no reason to believe they won't pass this," said Rabbi Hier. "It will certainly pass unless there's some sort of international outcry over this."

Bernie Farber, the chief executive of the Canadian Jewish Congress, said he was "stunned" by the measure. "We thought this had gone the way of the dodo bird, but clearly in Iran everything old and bad is new again," he said. "It's state-sponsored religious discrimination."

Ali Behroozian, an Iranian exile living in Toronto, said the law could come into force as early as next year.

It would make religious minorities immediately identifiable and allow Muslims to avoid contact with non-Muslims.

Mr. Behroozian said it will make life even more difficult for Iran's small pockets of Jewish, Christian and other religious minorities -- the country is overwhelmingly Shi'ite Muslim. "They have all been persecuted for a while, but these new dress rules are going to make things worse for them," he said.

The new law was drafted two years ago, but was stuck in the Iranian parliament until recently when it was revived at the behest of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

A spokesman for the Iranian Embassy in Ottawa refused to comment on the measures. "This is nothing to do with anything here," said a press secretary who identified himself as Mr. Gharmani.

"We are not here to answer such questions."

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre has written to Kofi Annan, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, protesting the Iranian law and calling on the international community to bring pressure on Iran to drop the measure.

"The world should not ignore this," said Rabbi Hier. "The world ignored Hitler for many years -- he was dismissed as a demagogue, they said he'd never come to power -- and we were all wrong."

Mr. Farber said Canada and other nations should take action to isolate Mr. Ahmadinejad in light of the new law, which he called "chilling," and his previous string of anti-Semitic statements.

"There are some very frightening parallels here," he said. "It's time to start considering how we're going to deal with this person."

Mr. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly described the Holocaust as a myth and earlier this year announced Iran would host a conference to re-examine the history of the Nazis' "Final Solution."

He has caused international outrage by publicly calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

Iran does not yet have nuclear weapons, but Tehran believed by Western nations to be developing its own nuclear military capability, in defiance of international protocols and peace treaties.

The United States, France and Israel accuse Iran of using a civilian nuclear program to secretly build a weapon. Iran denies this, saying its program is confined to generating electricity.

[email protected]
® National Post 2006

This sound familiar to anyone? It should, cause the parallels between Iran and a certain European country circa late 1930s are becoming more eerily similar with each new day.

And the days until Tehran is nothing but a smoking crater grow nearer still. It will happen if they keep this up.

Sadly, of course, Europe is still as eager as can be to help them build a nuclear reactor. I suppose they actually believe that Iran's nuclear tech is just "for energy", conveniently ignoring the dozens of times Iran has called for Israel to be wiped off the planet.....this year ALONE.

[Dr Maturin]

I say we carpet bomb them into the stone age and hope that a better form of government and leadership rises out of the ashes. I feel bad for the young students and idealists there, but they've had every chance to rebel.

[Dr Maturin]

Heh, an oil-rich nation needing a nuclear reactor. Sounds familiar...only they actually drill and export theirs.

[David Panzer]

...And in other news, the White Sox beat the Cubs, Major League pitchers still refuse to throw balls for Barry to hit , and later tonight ten 7 foot tall men will bounce a ball up and down a hardwood floor and attempt to put it through a net.

Be bored. Be amazed. Be plastered.

Your JMSNews sportsbreak...