The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Jan]

While I realize that it's nigh unto impossible to separate Islam from politics, could y'all put the discussion of the Qu'ran over in the Religion thread?

Jan

[Towelmaster]

You're right, it is impossible because religion has been politicized. So this is not a response to the religion itself but to the political abuse that it is subjected to.

That's why I posted it here. But indeed, i will put other postings about this religion in the other thread. No problemo.

[Der Mike]

The Qu'Ran is an incredibly badly written book that raises more questions than it answers and is highly ambiguous. It is in the eye of the beholder to determine whether it is a peaceful religion or not.

I myself have determined years and years ago that it is a religion that incites violence because of its complete lack of a clear statement asking for tolerance. There is no 'turn the other cheek' in islam. Nowhere to be found. There is no 'vengeance is mine' which would translate as "only God may kill".

It is just a very badly written book, and it is being abused by power-hungry fanatical religious terrorist junkies with a deathwish, who cannot understand that the opposition(me, for instance) will die rather than submit to their warped an twisted version of reality. If the choice would ever have to be made I'd rather nuke the shit out of the Middle East than have them impose their insane delusions on me. And I am a peaceful agnostic, not inclined to use any violence...

Also, I believe that the problem comes down to the difference between absolute truth and relative truth. In the West we have relative truths, as in ¤f you think the moon is made of blue cheese and God lives on the other side than that is your choice." This is opposed to the absolute truth of islam "No, The word of Mohammed is the Word of Allah and is 100% true. And if you don't believe that I'll cut off your head and the heads of the members of your family". For this reason alone I do not believe any longer that the islam can co-exist with more moderate groups. Certainly not in Europe, where(and I really don't care if people here deny that fact) freedom of speech is one of the pillars of civilization. You don't like what I say? Sue Me! But do not burn down my house assholes!

Frankly, I have had it up to here with all those intolerant f*ckers. And so does everybody here in this country. This cartoon-crap is just a symptom, a reason for some no-good uncivilized unemployed manipulated idiots to go over the top and burn embassies down.

And yes, it is too bad that the peaceful moslims in this country are the victims of their big brother's actions but that will always be the case everywhere.

The only upshot of it all is that the rest of Europe is now quite awake and startled by those responses from the idiots in Iran and on the West Bank. In the Netherlands we already had our wake-up call in November 2004. That is why the dutch have become so intolerant towards Islam. We have a damn good reason : they killed our national village-idiot(Van Gogh's words : "I'm not really afraid no. Nobody kills the village idiot"). No, except other idiots.

The thing I hate most about religions involving all-powerful writings and/or gods is, that the followers really just can't imagine that non-religious people are prepared to die for their own non-religious beliefs. Who says I do not feel as strong about my convictions as a christians or a muslim?

The ultimate bloody arrogance of those kind of people pisses me off way beyond belief. Yes : you heard it right : Those Kind Of People.

Because they are Definitely Not My Kind Of People.

DAMMIT! I miss the cold war. Huntingdon was right, this will be next : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

And, something the West will have to deal with is that the governments FULLY support this. I USED to support Turkey entering the EU --- but how the heck can I do so when the government silently supports its citizenry burning down the consulate of a FELLOW MEMBER? I may not think highly of Western Europe, but Jesus, the EU should not be a friggin' suicide pact.

And before anybody asks for proof that the governments support this, keep in mind two few things:

1) You can't organize AT ALL in most of those states. Even Turkey, the most secular of the bunch, freedom to organize and free association are myths. In Syria, if the government doesn't approve a mass demonstration, it IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

2) Not to be mean --- but Dutch flags aren't that damned easy to find. I'm not saying they're rare, but I live in the US and I'm near a flag store and I couldn't find more than a half-dozen Dutch flags if my life depended on it. Meanwhile, these mobs have dozens EACH? You KNOW they are not widely available in Gaza, Syria, etc.

I've read a few Muslim pieces who have actually asked the common sense question of "What makes Islam look worse? A picture of Mohammad that is offensive or a bunch of us threatening to slaughter thousands and burning down buildings because we're offended?". We are supposed to ignore the unbelievably offensive images and stories in the Arab press --- who still treat the Articles of the Protocols of Zion as historical fact, to give you an idea --- but we can't do anything that might offend Islam? I think not.

I'm a Christian. Quite proud of it. I ALSO do not want a theocracy in charge of my country. If Pat Robertson actually had any semblance of power of authority, I'm sure I'd be annoyed with him (now I just find him tiresome). But the imams who spout the most incendiary rhetoric I've heard ever (to bust out the name, worse than the crap spouted off by Goebbels and Hitler) are NOT marginal figures in that world. They have a lot of power.

If Islam is unable to handle a simple concept like a press that the religious authorities cannot control, then they are not welcome in this world. If Islam is unable to handle criticism of the tenets of their religion, then they are not a faith --- they are a cult.

I'm fairly sure I understand what the Dutch papers were going for --- Towel can, of course, correct me if I'm wrong --- and they were simply trying to demonstrate the problem of self-censorship in regards to Islam that has INFECTED the media around the world. The US is definitely not immune to it, which is depressing, but demonstrates the bankruptcy of the major media here. There should never be a group who is "above" criticism. There should NEVER be a group the press refuses to criticize --- especially if they refuse out of a fear of being KILLED. That is truly horrifying.

And my fear is that they will not stop unless somebody makes him. And that will lead to something really, really ugly. They have bought into the revisionist history of Islam (the Crusades were actually defensive battles fought due to constant Muslim provocation for decades beforehand) and seem to feel that they have special rights that nobody else is entitled to.

But, at least the rhetoric that they hate the US is being disproven. Denmark has not done ANYTHING to incite a damned thing. A newspaper printed a friggin' CARTOON, one that is friggin' TAME compared to the stuff in the Arab press (MEMRI.org is such a great resource).

For some Arab cartoons: http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
-=Mike

[Towelmaster]

I'm fairly sure I understand what the Dutch papers were going for

Slight correction; I take it you mean the Danish newspaper. Although the cartoon have now been published in the Netherlands too. BTW : if you rip a French flag in two you get two small dutch flags...

Turkey is only a 'secular country' because the army steps in when the islamic tendencies get to dangerous. The country is basically run with a military watchdog.

As for the rest of them : if they want to publish stupid cartoons of a jew swimming in a see of little children's blood(which they have done) then they should do that. But not in a Dutch newspaper, or a Danish newspaper. In return they have nothing to say about what we do here. Full stop.

I just heard today that the Iranians are going to publish offensive cartoons too now... I don't know if I have to laugh or cry at so much immature childishness.

Apart from Turkey, in none of those countries you can so much as fart without permission. So everything there is approved of by The State. Witness the arrests of editors in Egypt(moderate country!) and Jordan.

I'm not even making a joke when I say I miss the cold war. Politics was easier then, and religion was not a big part of it. And it shouldn't be.

[Der Mike]

Sorry, meant Danish. And I'm irked that our State Dept didn't totally stand behind the newspapers --- but I imagine if we did that, it would have made it worse.

[Andrew_Swallow]

I just heard today that the Iranians are going to publish offensive cartoons too now... I don't know if I have to laugh or cry at so much immature childishness.

To defeat this û just a small factual report. Do not even blink.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Time for the Spanish Inquisition to return and to hunt for Muslims?

In Britain there are Muslim organisations that are trying to calm things down. I wish them luck.

[Towelmaster]

Me too. I take it you too see the pictures of the fantastic slogans their fellow muslims are carrying? Luck they will need.



*Standard Dutch Disclaimer* : "Of course I'm not talking about all muslims, only about those who want to cut off my head and use it for a football".

[Ranger1]

A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons

Yup, always the jews fault LOL, this guy has some serious scratch in his brain.

- Cartoons against jews.
- Holocaust never existed.
- Wipe out the Jewish state.
- pursuing weapons of mass destruction for "peaceful energy"

Can you say "Hitler #2 with an atomic bomb(s)"? as a Jewish guy from Israel it sure feels like it.

Some very disturbing pictures (not related to the above), not for those who have a weak heart: http://www.faithfreedom.org/gallery.htm

[Der Mike]

So, will Iran allow non-Muslims to riot and burn embassies after they are printed? How about the other Muslim states?

No?

Shocking.

And it truly is shocking to see a paper run by a state governed by an anti-Semite who denies the Holocaust publish cartoons that are anti-Semitic and deny the Holocaust. How will they differentiate the "contest" cartoons from the "usual everyday" cartoons?
-=Mike

[Ranger1]

I would laugh if it was something new:

http://img333.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200602040fb.gif

[Andrew_Swallow]

I laughed on the grounds, is that the worst they can do?

They seem to have forgotten that the West is Christian. No doubt there will soon be an anti-Jesus joke.

[Dr Maturin]

I laughed on the grounds, is that the worst they can do?

They seem to have forgotten that the West is Christian. No doubt there will soon be an anti-Jesus joke.

Doesn't matter to them; Christian, Jewish, Satanist...all the same to them. We're infidels.

[David Panzer]

Actually in islam, jews and christians are considered "people of the book", in that they're monotheistic; share the same prophets; belive in life after death, divine judgment, and heaven; and share the same creation stories.

The term "infidel" in islam applies to atheists and followers of religions which aren't "people of the book". The milliant muslims are too lazy to bother with this, as they're too busy blowing shit up

[Towelmaster]

Yes, they're talking about me...