The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Capt.Montoya]

- I admire the scientific pioneering that came out of the States
[...]
And I could go on for some time. However, none of these things are particularly political though they may have been in the past and will be in the future.

Actually science apparently has been politicized already by the Bush administration. http://www.waronscience.com/home.php
Given the comments on global warming a few pages back from our conservative friends it seems the Republican War On Science is working...

Dear dear Der Mike : I know so many Americans who are nice, polite and well-behaved and can have a serious discussion without spouting off every other minute. But you are so far removed from this planet that you cannot possibly be taken serious when you blabber on about 'the old and terrible Europe'. It is shocking to see how little you know and how much you presume.

He doesn't only blabber in a shockingly ignorant and presumptuous way about Europe... Seems that serious discussion about MÚxico with Der Mike is also out of the question. But I can't let some statements remain uncontested.

If the gov't has set up a situation where they can only make ends meet by having their people LEAVE, then the country is a shitheap and is run by as corrupt a group of imbeciles as there is. The next thing Mexican government does correctly will be its first.

The situation was not "set up" by the government, in the sense that it was not intentional, but it was the direct result of 70 years of corrupt, often inept, government. That was a nitpick, the important point is this: tens of millions of Mexicans make ends meet by staying, some do quite well too, so it's completely < insert your own adjective here > to say that "they can only make ends meet by [leaving]".
Ergo, MÚxico is not a shitheap.

If you can name another country that RELIES on illegal immigration to the extent Mexico does, feel free.

Actually MÚxico relies on emmigration it's the USA that relies on the immigration for cheap labor... and there's a lot of dishonesty from those in power in the USA about it.

There is nothing that the Mexican gov't does that is worth a shit and they did a bang-up job of utterly ruining a country, possibly beyond any hope of repair.

Doing all the hard job of capturing drug lords and intercepting drug shipments to protect the USA from their incessant demand for illegal drugs?
Guess that ain't worth a shit for you.
Utterly ruined? One of the top twenty economies in the world, a member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (with the president-elect of the OECD being Mexican, and MÚxico being the only Latin American country in the organization). A country with a positive balance on trade with the USA... home to one of the world's biggest cement producers (CEMEX)... a country that has millionaires in the Forbes list... recipient of large amounts of Foreign Direct Investment...
< sarcasm > Yeah, that sounds utterly ruined </ sarcasm >
Much of the above was a direct result of the Mexican government entering the WTO (when it was still GATT) and negotiating NAFTA... but I guess that simply by being an action of the Mexican government that ain't worth a shit for you.
Entering a dicussion about "hope of repair" might be worthless.

At this point, the only hope Mexico has is if their gov't is removed and they are governed by a country who has a clue how to govern.

And that country would be...? Not the USA I guess, they're too busy re-arranging the Middle East. Maybe MÚxico should petition Spain to take back the colony as a protectorate, remind them of the warm welcome given to the expatriates of the fascist Franco regime, offer oil and the silver and gold that the Spaniards didn't manage to extract during ther reign, and of course the whole lot of other mineral riches the country has... heck if I was Rodriguez-Zapatero I'd take the offer.

But you seem ignorant of something: MÚxico has removed that 70-year old corrupt government, democratically, without foreign intervention, in 2000, with the election of the first president from another party. The Fox administration has a clue how to govern, but hasn't been so effective (I guess they only had a clue, but not a plan), still there's been a significant reduction in extreme poverty levels. Additionally, there's been much effort (and successes) in rooting out corruption at various levels. There will be presidential elections this year, which might help turn the country further into a different path, away from the old vices of the PRI. The result is up in the air, no clear winner yet.
But there is hope on that election...

Seeing as how we DON'T GOVERN THE ENTIRE WORLD, yes, the Constitution does not apply to anybody who is not an American citizen.

... unless that non-citizen is in USA territory. As any civilized country does when you enter the territory you are subject to the laws and benefit from the rights (which I'm sure was quite helpful for any black slaves in the USA that fled to MÚxico, where slavery was outlawed from the very independence).

3) Islam cannot be reformed. Period. We need to stop trying trying.

There are moderate sects of Islam (e.g. Sufism), there are moderate voices in Islam.
But when you start saber rattling against Islam as a whole the muslim saber rattlers would be the ones to answer and the moderate voices will be drowned.

[Der Mike]

I'll use a word some christians make a habit of using in regard to the bible..."Context, context, CONTEXT". I do the same for other books that are important to religions, even if I don't give them the same value that believers do.

There are extremists in every group in the world, however they do not speak for the entire group.

Time for a fact: The Koran, in the eyes of Muslims, is the LITERAL word of God. You cannot possibly question it. You cannot explain it away. It is the EXACT word of God and there is no way to moderate its influences.

It is the same story over again I see : "No, this is how we(americans) do it", instead of "should we(americans) be doing it this way?". Which was and remains the purpose of that provocative article on my blog.

No, it's who does the US CONSTITUTION apply to?

Answer: AMERICAN CITIZENS. Not Saudis. Nor Iranians. Not Iraqis. Not even the Dutch.

Now, personally, I'd love to see us treat the prisoners the way the prisoners' home country would treat them.

BTW Mr. Mike : "I won't direct traffic to this site as, well, nobody deserves that kind of punishment" is hard to combine with "I was helping you". Come on. These are your own words.

Helping you as in "not attributing inanity to you".

I can't think of very many religions that *haven't* had violence and atrocities committed in the name of their deity. In that case, shouldn't all of our prisons deny all expressions of worship?

You don't get brand-new free Bibles in prison. And Islam is every inch as bad as the worst misconceptions about Christianity --- and it has NEVER changed. Not once. It was unbelievably violent in its inception. It was unbelievably violent during its expansion. It's unbelievably violent now. It won't change, ever, either.

No way any government is ever going to admit to pursuing war against any religion.

True. It does not change reality, though.

The same could be said about Christianity. So where does it end?

The Bible was the inspired word of God.
The Koran is the LITERAL word of God.

One is reformable. One is not.

Actually science apparently has been politicized already by the Bush administration. http://www.waronscience.com/home.php
Given the comments on global warming a few pages back from our conservative friends it seems the Republican War On Science is working...

Utter BS. Global warming is a modern day eugenics movement and when its fraud is fully exposed, people such as you will deny ever supporting a "theory" with so little evidence behind.

How about we have a single prediction from the movement come true before we take them seriously?

And, seriously, the web page FOR THE BOOK? Is that the best you can do? Heck, at least post the article where that NASA scientist claims that NASA tried to silence him on environmental problems --- which is comical, considering that NASA has been completely supportive of the junk science for decades now.

Then again, as long as scientists know where the money comes from, they'll work the research to get more.

The situation was not "set up" by the government, in the sense that it was not intentional, but it was the direct result of 70 years of corrupt, often inept, government. That was a nitpick, the important point is this: tens of millions of Mexicans make ends meet by staying, some do quite well too, so it's completely < insert your own adjective here > to say that "they can only make ends meet by [leaving]".
Ergo, MÚxico is not a shitheap.

Mexico is a shitheap. We here in the US are sick of YOUR people swarming here and putting strains on our society.

But, I can't blame the Mexicans because, lord, I'd leave there as soon as I could as well. I am all for punishing any company who hires anybody who is not legally here.

And screw the Mexican government's whining because we might finally get a little tougher on the border problem.

Actually MÚxico relies on emmigration it's the USA that relies on the immigration for cheap labor... and there's a lot of dishonesty from those in power in the USA about it.

We'd do fine without your people swarming in here.

Mexico would not.

Doing all the hard job of capturing drug lords and intercepting drug shipments to protect the USA from their incessant demand for illegal drugs?
Guess that ain't worth a shit for you.

Considering how often our Border Patrol agents mention Mexican troops and police protecting drug runners --- no, it isn't worth a shit.

With the sheer number of incursions from your troops, we should be arming our agents will fully automatic weaponry and allowing them to open fire on anybody who crosses.

Utterly ruined? One of the top twenty economies in the world, a member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (with the president-elect of the OECD being Mexican, and MÚxico being the only Latin American country in the organization). A country with a positive balance on trade with the USA... home to one of the world's biggest cement producers (CEMEX)... a country that has millionaires in the Forbes list... recipient of large amounts of Foreign Direct Investment...

A country so rampant with corruption that the mind boggles. A country that NEEDS its people to sneak into its neighbor to make money and send it back to the country. Yes, tell me more of how bang-up a job the Mexican gov't has done for its economy. Please. I could use a good laugh.

Much of the above was a direct result of the Mexican government entering the WTO (when it was still GATT) and negotiating NAFTA... but I guess that simply by being an action of the Mexican government that ain't worth a shit for you.
Entering a dicussion about "hope of repair" might be worthless.

Yup. You figured it out quickly.

And that country would be...? Not the USA I guess, they're too busy re-arranging the Middle East. Maybe MÚxico should petition Spain to take back the colony as a protectorate, remind them of the warm welcome given to the expatriates of the fascist Franco regime, offer oil and the silver and gold that the Spaniards didn't manage to extract during ther reign, and of course the whole lot of other mineral riches the country has... heck if I was Rodriguez-Zapatero I'd take the offer.

But you seem ignorant of something: MÚxico has removed that 70-year old corrupt government, democratically, without foreign intervention, in 2000, with the election of the first president from another party. The Fox administration has a clue how to govern, but hasn't been so effective (I guess they only had a clue, but not a plan), still there's been a significant reduction in extreme poverty levels. Additionally, there's been much effort (and successes) in rooting out corruption at various levels. There will be presidential elections this year, which might help turn the country further into a different path, away from the old vices of the PRI. The result is up in the air, no clear winner yet.
But there is hope on that election...

Mexico needs somebody to govern themselves because Fox cannot do it, the prior governments could not do it, and this is not going to change.

... unless that non-citizen is in USA territory. As any civilized country does when you enter the territory you are subject to the laws and benefit from the rights (which I'm sure was quite helpful for any black slaves in the USA that fled to MÚxico, where slavery was outlawed from the very independence).

Incorrect, actually. I could mention a list of rights that don't apply to you when you're here illegally, if you so desire.

Apparently, in JMS world, basic knowledge of government and law is limited.

There are moderate sects of Islam (e.g. Sufism), there are moderate voices in Islam.
But when you start saber rattling against Islam as a whole the muslim saber rattlers would be the ones to answer and the moderate voices will be drowned.

You have a violent religion based on the violent nature of the literal word of God.

No, there isn't much you can do.

Hint: decapitation of enemies is actually supported by the Koran.
-=Mike

[Jan]

<Moderator mode>Just a couple of things here...

First-- Der Mike, you seem to be supposing that Capt. Montoya is Mexican. On what do you base that? I don't see any residence or nationality in the profile. Capt. Montoya was a character in B5, you know.

Second--some of the discussion of Islam should probably move over into the R,I Religion thread.

</Moderator mode>
Jan

[Der Mike]

<Moderator mode>Just a couple of things here...

First-- Der Mike, you seem to be supposing that Capt. Montoya is Mexican. On what do you base that? I don't see any residence or nationality in the profile. Capt. Montoya was a character in B5, you know.

Second--some of the discussion of Islam should probably move over into the R,I Religion thread.

</Moderator mode>
Jan

I neither know, nor care, where Montoya resides.
-=Mike

[Jan]

I neither know, nor care, where Montoya resides.
-=Mike

Then to whom were you referring when you said "We here in the US are sick of YOUR people..." and "We'd do fine without your people ..."?

Jan
Moderator

[Der Mike]

Then to whom were you referring when you said "We here in the US are sick of YOUR people..." and "We'd do fine without your people ..."?

Jan
Moderator

He wishes to wield the sword of defending Mexican gov't. I am permitting him to do so.
-=Mike

[Jan]

'Permit'? I would suggest that you don't have any say in the matter. Be careful that you don't post anything that could be construed as a personal attack.

Jan
Moderator

[Der Mike]

'Permit'? I would suggest that you don't have any say in the matter. Be careful that you don't post anything that could be construed as a personal attack.

Jan
Moderator

Who's making a personal attack? He wishes to defend Mexico. I am treating him as I would anybody attempting to defend the incredibly corrupt Mexican gov't.
-=Mike

[David Panzer]

Again, what government in the world isn't corrupt? It's like complaining that the color "Orange" is too orange

[Radhil]

3) Islam cannot be reformed. Period. We need to stop trying trying.
-=Mike

How many Islamics have you met Mike?

[Jan]

And Islam is every inch as bad as the worst misconceptions about Christianity --- and it has NEVER changed. Not once. It was unbelievably violent in its inception. It was unbelievably violent during its expansion. It's unbelievably violent now. It won't change, ever, either.

Uh-huh. Just like the Bible's never changed, right? Or the Catholic Church? Right. There are plenty of Christians who will happily tell you that the Bible is the 'literal word of God', too. I can think of half a dozen just where I work. At least one is up in arms over the Catholic church recently saying that the Bible should be taken as allegory and parables.

Jan

[Towelmaster]

On an off-topic note, I have this Peter Frampton dvd and I would like to add P.F. to my list of favourite american matters : Lines on my face, from the...things that you said...

Ermmm... vaguely relevant...

[Der Mike]

How many Islamics have you met Mike?

Muslims. And plenty.

Uh-huh. Just like the Bible's never changed, right? Or the Catholic Church? Right. There are plenty of Christians who will happily tell you that the Bible is the 'literal word of God', too.

And they'd be incorrect. The Christian faith teaches that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Man wrote it based on God's inspiration. That is a central tenet of the Christian faith and anybody who claims otherwise is misstating reality.

The Bible actually hasn't changed, but the interpretation as been cleaned up A LOT because the Bible was written BY MAN and not directly from the pen of God or from the pen of Jesus, the son of God.

The Koran, on the other hand, IS THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD. There is no room for interpretation. What it says is PRECISELY what it means. There is a clear reason why the Koran was far more violent than the Bible:

Mohammed was a WARRIOR. Jesus was NOT.

I can think of half a dozen just where I work. At least one is up in arms over the Catholic church recently saying that the Bible should be taken as allegory and parables.

That a few Christians are incorrect does not mean it is Christianity's fault. It is the fault of the either the practitioner or, most likely, the lack of education of the people who are trying to teach them.

An even cursory reading of the Bible states that the Bible is not LITERAL truth as Jesus tells stories and does not once claim that the stories are ABSOLUTE truth and not allegorical truth.
-=Mike

[Jan]

And they'd be incorrect. The Christian faith teaches that the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Man wrote it based on God's inspiration. That is a central tenet of the Christian faith and anybody who claims otherwise is misstating reality.

WHICH Christian faith???? There are too many to count!

The Bible actually hasn't changed, but the interpretation as been cleaned up A LOT because the Bible was written BY MAN and not directly from the pen of God or from the pen of Jesus, the son of God.

The very languages have changed. There are gazillions of 'versions' of the Bible including the 'Feel Good' Bible and the 'Picture' Bible. And you mean to tell me that nothing's changed? Ever?

The Koran, on the other hand, IS THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD. There is no room for interpretation. What it says is PRECISELY what it means.

No, there are people who believe that it's the literal word of God. And plenty who don't.

That a few Christians are incorrect does not mean it is Christianity's fault. It is the fault of the either the practitioner or, most likely, the lack of education of the people who are trying to teach them.

Which particular segment of Christianity are you referring to? I don't think anybody can point to 'Christianity' as a single religion anymore. Probably not for a couple of thousand years.

Jan

[David Panzer]

Exactly. In christianity you had the Nestorian schism in 431, the Chalcedonian schism in 451, the great schism in 1054, the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, the creation of the Church of England around the same time, and then some guys in 19th century U.S who had something called the Restoration movement who try to retcon themselves as part of the Early church conviently before all these splits started happening.