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  • #31
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    [B]Well, just like abortion, a majority of Americans are against the marriagies (even the Liberal Hero John Kerry is!) so do you go against the will of the people for what some perceive as the moral thing to do? I understand the position. Would a serial killer want to be executed? (That analogy does not mean to equate gays with killers, just an example)
    Actually, Kerry is more what I'd call middle of the road leaning left. And he's against gay marriage but for civil unions. This is an argument of semantics which I've gone into in detail already somewhere on this forum. I'll bet if people weren't out there screaming for blood over gay marriage and saying they don't want it, Kerry would be for it. He's taking a middle of the road approach. Most Americans are for civil unions...it's when that "M" word gets thrown in that things get all dicey.

    I remind you, the majority is not always right. It is the judiciary branches' job to interpret the law and in doing so occasionally set that law (ie. Roe Vs. Wade). Why are we suddenly screaming that judges are trying to seize some kind of power over the people as if they were staging some political coup. They're doing the same thing they've been doing since the judiciary branch was conceived and put into place. They are there, sometimes, in order to make certain that one set of views aren't imposed on another (meaning in cases of no personal harm..in personal harm cases one person's desire is forced onto another.) Without religious text or dogma, there is no argument against gay marriage. It causes no harm to society or individuals, and may actually go towards strengthening certain family units...thus making communities and the country more stable. Interracial marriage, civil rights, women's rights, anti-slavery...all unpopular to the majority. Sometimes, change is necessary. "If there is to be a brave new world, Captain, our generation going to have the hardest time living in it." Great line...and true. Sometimes it takes visionary people willing to stand on principle and for what they believe in to bring change about. This is what the Mayor of San Francisco is doing and others. I applaud them. In the SF Mayor's eyes, he is following the law. What you seem to forget is that there is a fundamental conflict in CA state law. The Mayor is following the state's constitution...which says no one should be discriminated against...all are equal...which in his view came first and has greater weight. There is a proposition which passed by popular vote however that seems to contradict the CA constitution. He is following what takes higher presidence.

    It's funny. ...the US Consitution has the same rights gauranteed...but no one seems to realize that or that any ammendent banning someone from equality would be outright unconstitutional and un-American.


    But...no one is saying we should burn gays at the stake (well, no one in a position of power or sensible). As far as I know, it's not illegal to be gay (not even in Texas.)
    Actually it was fundamentally illegal..not to be gay per se, but to fundamentally do the very thing that makes one gay, that being same gender sex...that is until the Supreme Court overturned all sodomy laws in the United States in their ruling in June 2003. Which is what started this whole snowball rolling in the first place.

    On a personal note...I cried when that ruling came down, because for the first time in this country the law now stated that I could no longer go to jail for being with someone I loved...it was no longer illegal to love who I wanted to love. I great day in our history...of course, then Bush had to blacken it with his support of what amounts to nothing more than legislated hatred and persecution.

    And as for burning gays at the stake...lol...what do you think Matthew Shepard was? And do you think that was isolated? Oh, but it's cool to beat up the faggots. Makes you tough. But I'll bet it's not so cool to beat up the black guy anymore. No one stands for that...that's sad when it still happens. But people still protest fund raisers for the Matthew Shepard foundation (some of which Matthew's own mother is attending) with hate-filled signs that say Matthew burns in hell. OH yeah...this is the majority I want to trust my freedom to? Nope....I'd rather know that my freedom is assured and protected, and if it takes people with the guts to stand on principle and judges to ensure it...then so be it...call them what you will. I call them heroes.

    It's easy to talk about things when you're the one holding all the cards. You have the rights we're seeking. You always have. You can walk down the street hand in hand with your partner and not fear someone attacking you. You don't have to worry about your wife's family coming in and taking all of your belongings after shes dies because you have no right to it. You can visit your spouse in the hospital and make decisions on her behalf. They list goes on and on. The right to marry goes beyond the fact that you're a couple, it also entails certain assurances, protections, and rights to spouses and couples under the law. It's easy to pass judgement when you have nothing to loose.

    What would happen if the equivalents of Saudi or Iranian mayor married gay couples? USA is very, very tolerant, despite what some people say.
    Tolerant compared to a fundamentalist religious society? Yes...but that's apples and oranges. If we're the great nation we claim to be, espousing the cause of human rights, then we can't turn around and deny equal rights to our own people when it's convenient...it's a little thing called hipocrisy...and it's ugly.

    And that's my way of looking at it.

    CE

    PS: ZHDD, I understand now on your gay character...it's a girl. You straight men don't mind queer women, that's a turn on....but two guys? He he. I dare you to make the character a gay guy. And write him with compassion and fairness. With hopes and dreams, emotions and pains, just like everyone else. To truly try to understand the gay man's mind. A good writer strives to do just that. It's easier to get into a lesbian mind...you can kinda just imagine it as what you might think with a little bit of your wife's thoughts on top.

    Being gay is more than being attracted to the same sex. It's who you are...inside and out. You see the world completely differently. I mean do you think women and men see the world the same way? I don't think anyone would say they do...well, same for gays, lesbians, bi's and transgendereds.

    I believe we all carry a piece of the puzzle. We were all meant to be here for a reason. And if we can all ever get over our differences and bring our pieces together...we might just at least have a better clue what this universe is all about.

    Some of you are going to say, "So you're saying God created gay people."

    YES, that's exactly what I'm saying. For every front there is a back. For every up, a down. Does the front hate the back for being behind it? NO...it is simply what is. But together they make up..a something. I was born this way, I didn't choose it...and those who say I did are full of shit...period. Those gay people who say they chose to be gay are full of shit and living in some form of denial to make themselves feel as if they have an out if things get too rough. I know, I speak from living...I've run the gamut of the reasons and counter-reasons, emotions and pains one goes through when coming to terms with the fact the they're different than with "society" says it "normal." They're just saying to themselves in justification..."maybe if I think of it this way or that way then I can change if I have to." Well, I hate to tell them, they can try but it don't work. You're gay, you're gay...period...I can't change it anymore than you can turn bright pink and sprout wings and fart-blast your way to the moon.

    We can accept our diversity...celebrate and respect it...or we can make people hide who they are and hate their existence. Which one do you think God would prefer we do?
    Anthony Flessas
    Writer/Producer/Director,
    SP Pictures


    I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

    Comment


    • #32
      By the way, Radhill. I don't mean to be forward or anything here, but from your arguments can I conclude that you're either gay or have someone very close to you who is, thus enlightening your mind to what we go through?
      Anthony Flessas
      Writer/Producer/Director,
      SP Pictures


      I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

      Comment


      • #33
        Only kinda-sorta. Had a female friend who was gay a while ago that I make feeble attempts to keep in touch with. Last I knew she was out in California - I should probably check for a list of the San Fran couples and see if she's on it, she'd found someone special moving out there. Still, not gay myself, nor any real closeness to anyone of that persuasion. Just a downtrodden sort myself, and a sometime idealist, romantic, dreamer, blah blah blah (obviously other times cynic)....

        One L. ONE L! :P
        Radhil Trebors
        Persona Under Construction

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Radhil
          Only kinda-sorta. Had a female friend who was gay a while ago that I make feeble attempts to keep in touch with. Last I knew she was out in California - I should probably check for a list of the San Fran couples and see if she's on it, she'd found someone special moving out there. Still, not gay myself, nor any real closeness to anyone of that persuasion. Just a downtrodden sort myself, and a sometime idealist, romantic, dreamer, blah blah blah (obviously other times cynic)....

          One L. ONE L! :P
          Well, glad to know there are people like you out there standing with us...thanks.
          Anthony Flessas
          Writer/Producer/Director,
          SP Pictures


          I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

          Comment


          • #35
            "The Other Side"

            Ladies and Gentlemen, let me chime in on the subject of marriage/union.

            I have been actively trying to get the government out of the habit of trying to "decide" who has the right to enter into a consensual relationship for over a decade. I am a member of the Libertarian Party. I see a lot of libertarian themes in JMS' writing.

            Not only am I concerned about the marriage/union debate because of this, but also because I am bisexual. And so is my wife. No, she is not my partner. I am male, she is female, but that is not the defining part of our relationship. We are committed to each other because of things we have said to each other, not because some Mayor in DeQueen, Arkansas said we are.

            Do I believe that people of the same sex could have the same kind of relationship as we have right now? Yup, because we both have. Do I believe that a committed relationship can exist between one man and more than one woman, so long as all consent to the arrangement? Yup. Do I believe that one woman and several men can? Yup. How about a mish-mash of men and women, kind of a communal relationship? Yup. Do I believe that the government has ANY place in defining who has the right to love each other, have sex with each other, or create a household with each other? So long as all are of legal age to consent, NOPE! They should only be around to enforce the contractual obligations when one has failed to live up to them. And those obligations should be defined by the participants, not the government.

            In other words, ALL MARRIAGE should be civil unions, as far as the government is concerned. Let the participants call it what they want.

            If you want to be among others fighting for the same thing, you won't find it among Democrats or Republicans (with very few individual exceptions).
            "Ivanova is God!"

            Comment


            • #36
              McCarthy

              Since the specter of McCarthy was raised again in the B5 forums...
              And Z'ha'dum Dweller claimed again that the Venona documents exculpate him...
              I provide again a link presenting a differing view of McCarthy:

              http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...s/06/then.now/
              Some quotes:
              This new evidence is forcing the revision of many of the prevailing myths about the internal communist threat to American democracy in the postwar era. None of it exculpates McCarthy. He remains a political bully who hurt a number of people. But his exaggerated and baseless charges also harmed the anti-communist cause. In a variant of Gresham's Law, his bad charges trivialized and weakened good ones.
              [...]
              McCarthy's wild charges did not help uncover Soviet spies. But there were spies, there was a legitimate security issue and there were very good reasons for suspecting that most of the spies were American communists. None of that excuses the excesses of McCarthyism, but it also puts the era of McCarthyism into context.
              Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
              James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: McCarthy

                Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                Since the specter of McCarthy was raised again in the B5 forums...
                And Z'ha'dum Dweller claimed again that the Venona documents exculpate him...
                I provide again a link presenting a differing view of McCarthy:

                http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...s/06/then.now/
                Some quotes:
                To be fair, that was an opinion column and the writer simply said things like "there were threats BUT that doesn't excuse McCarthyism."

                The prime people McCarthy and HUAC targeted were proven to be spies.

                What's scary is that Hiss was an architect of the UN and was a supporter of the move to hand Poland over to the USSR. Welcome to the Gulag.
                Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                Comment


                • #38
                  to CE:
                  Hi,
                  I┤m a 42 year old (with a man) married women and mother, without gay friends, relatives ...., but I think absolut like you. I can┤t understand, why it┤s forbidden to marry a person of the same sex (correct word?).
                  The most of my friends also don┤t understand this. Till now I┤ve never heard an argument, that could change my mind.
                  For me are the arguments that I┤ve heard till today against the marriage for the same sex based in fear/anxiety for/about changings or the loose of certainty. And I think, the best possibility to develop myself in a great quantity AND quality, is to risk uncertainty and try new things / livestyles...
                  For me is the ┤principle of equality`the highest right and as long as no one will be hurt (body, soul,..) no one has the right to cut the right of other people.
                  Hope, You understand, what I┤m try to say, my english skills are growing only in little steps.
                  Bye

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The prime people McCarthy and HUAC targeted were proven to be spies.
                    Two people out of How Many?

                    McCarthy ruined hundreds of lives for Publicity.
                    One of McCarthy's early targets was Ronald Reagan.
                    Ronnie got a "get out of trouble free" card by giving them the names of 10 friends who were "Possible" communists.


                    Meanwhile, on the Current political war front:

                    It seems Dubya shouldn't have worried about the purple hearts awarded to Kerry.

                    Instead, he should have removed the photos of Himself wearing military awards he was never awarded from his Father's Presidential Library.

                    Kerry campaign attacks President over 'war honour he did not earn'

                    By Charles Laurence in New York (Filed: 29/08/2004)

                    Supporters of Senator John Kerry yesterday warned of "blowback" against President George W Bush for the political "attack ads" by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth which have damaged Mr Kerry's election campaign.


                    After weeks of denigration of the Democratic challenger's Vietnam war record, Mr Kerry's backers have responded with allegations against the President - including the claim that he was once photographed in uniform wearing a medal ribbon he had not earned.

                    As polls showed that Mr Bush had edged ahead of Mr Kerry for the first time, a pro-Kerry organisation labelled the President an "impostor" over the photograph, taken in 1970 and discovered in his father's Presidential Library in Houston, Texas.

                    The ribbon is an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award - which was not awarded to the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron in which Mr Bush served until 1975, five years after the photograph was taken, according to the group US War Report.
                    OOPS.

                    If Shrub had gotten caught at the time, the offense usually earns a bad conduct discharge...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bakana
                      OOPS.

                      If Shrub had gotten caught at the time, the offense usually earns a bad conduct discharge...
                      It is not easy to fix a medal you have not earned to your jacket. Bush may simply have come to the party in civvies and been lent someone else's jacket for the photograph.

                      Fun mud throwing session but photographs on two different occasions are needed.
                      Andrew Swallow

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Thank you searching girl for the very sweet remarks and thank you for your support. We need all the help we can get.

                        CE
                        Anthony Flessas
                        Writer/Producer/Director,
                        SP Pictures


                        I have no avatar! I walk in mystery and need nothing to represent who and what I am!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          It is not easy to fix a medal you have not earned to your jacket. Bush may simply have come to the party in civvies and been lent someone else's jacket for the photograph.

                          Fun mud throwing session but photographs on two different occasions are needed.
                          It's not a Medal, it's a Presidential Unit Citation Ribbon.

                          Bush wasn't IN the unit when the ribbon was awarded and is therefore not eligible to wear it.
                          Not then. Not Now.

                          The photo in question is from his Father's Presidential Library.
                          It's a posed portrait style Professional photo.
                          IOW, an Official photo, not a "put on someone else's jacket" photo at a party.

                          And it Is the responsibility of the Officer wearing the ribbon to be sure he has the right ones on his uniform.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bakana
                            {snip}
                            The photo in question is from his Father's Presidential Library.
                            It's a posed portrait style Professional photo.
                            IOW, an Official photo, not a "put on someone else's jacket" photo at a party.

                            And it Is the responsibility of the Officer wearing the ribbon to be sure he has the right ones on his uniform.
                            Find a second photograph on a different day and you have him, one unexpected formal photograph could be an accident but two means that it is his jacket. Even if he did not do the work I suspect he attended the parties, any photos taken at them could still be around.
                            Andrew Swallow

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Just a little update on the informal, unscientific bumper sticker poll I am doing:

                              Bush/Cheney: 30

                              Kerry: 9

                              Kerry/Edwards: 2

                              Nader: 0

                              EDIT: I forgot that I saw a Kerry and a Kerry/Edwards today.
                              Last edited by Dr Maturin; 09-15-2004, 06:50 PM.
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                one unexpected formal photograph could be an accident but two means that it is his jacket.
                                A formal photo in his Father's Presidential Library is unlikely to have been taken "Unexpectedly"

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