The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Dr Maturin]

In what can be described as a coincidence (or an act of God), two stories currently big in the media are prime examples of recent debates in this forum.

1. Tyco execs were convicted in court of "white-collar" crimes. Considering that the convictions aren't part of an isolated incident, it kind of throws a wrench in Harrdy's arguments about wild capitalism.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BDE6A4A98-B53C-41B7-AF5C-22CD1F162E23%7D&siteid=google

2. The seemingly bumbling antics of investigators on the island of Aruba in regards to the Natalie Holloway situation is highly indictative of an ineffective policy towards such things by the Dutch. My friend TM is always talking about different brands of democracy, but when common sense is forgone in favor of "civil rights," (note the quotes), there is something seriously wrong. How a case has gone on this long on an island that is barely larger than the city of Washington and with a population of a small town is beyond me. Actually, it isn't beyond me. It looks like special interests are stonewalling the investigation, using weak laws about detention and questioning as their glue.

[Towelmaster]

2. The seemingly bumbling antics of investigators on the island of Aruba in regards to the Natalie Holloway situation is highly indictative of an ineffective policy towards such things by the Dutch. My friend TM is always talking about different brands of democracy, but when common sense is forgone in favor of "civil rights," (note the quotes), there is something seriously wrong. How a case has gone on this long on an island that is barely larger than the city of Washington and with a population of a small town is beyond me. Actually, it isn't beyond me. It looks like special interests are stonewalling the investigation, using weak laws about detention and questioning as their glue.

Some information about that: the Americans have more influence on Aruba than the dutch have. This is because years ago(under American pressure) the dutch were more or less forced to give the islands a special status. basically the same as what happened in the late 50-ies when Robert Kennedy simply stated 'get out of Indonesia or you don't get any financial aid). The islands are protectorates of the Netherlands but they have their own government. Just to be clear : By 'under American pressure I do not imply that this was a wrong move of the Americans, I'm just stating the fact.

Basically since then, the Netherlands have put a lot of money in the islands altogether to keep them functioning. But it hardly has a say in internal matters, and this is an internal matter.

Apart from that; the Netherlands have many many problems at the moment. And though the country may have been an example for the rest of the world at some point, it is now reinventing itself. Which is always painful and leads attention away from matters oversea.

[colonyearth]

In what can be described as a coincidence (or an act of God), two stories currently big in the media are prime examples of recent debates in this forum.

1. Tyco execs were convicted in court of "white-collar" crimes. Considering that the convictions aren't part of an isolated incident, it kind of throws a wrench in Harrdy's arguments about wild capitalism.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BDE6A4A98-B53C-41B7-AF5C-22CD1F162E23%7D&siteid=google

2. The seemingly bumbling antics of investigators on the island of Aruba in regards to the Natalie Holloway situation is highly indictative of an ineffective policy towards such things by the Dutch. My friend TM is always talking about different brands of democracy, but when common sense is forgone in favor of "civil rights," (note the quotes), there is something seriously wrong. How a case has gone on this long on an island that is barely larger than the city of Washington and with a population of a small town is beyond me. Actually, it isn't beyond me. It looks like special interests are stonewalling the investigation, using weak laws about detention and questioning as their glue.

I always find it hilarious when people online jump to wild and outlandish conclusions based on little to no information...especially when they're trying to use those left-field conclusions to attack a certain political viewpoint.

It's just so weak and empty it's funny as hell.

Whew! That bit of imaginative connection and wild speculation was downright gutbusting.

"civil rights" in quotes...ROFLMAO! That's just priceless!

CE

[Dr Maturin]

"civil rights" in quotes...ROFLMAO! That's just priceless!

Yeah, because holding someone for more than seven days is EVIL, and oh my gosh, it's violating someone's civil rights!

I hope they nail this punk kid to the wall and leave him out to dry.

[David Panzer]

Civil rights according to American law. The investigation and trial when it happens fall under Arubian law.

[Dr Maturin]

Civil rights according to American law. The investigation and trial when it happens fall under Arubian law.

That is my point. It's a criminal-friendly law system. Apparently, they swept crime under the rug in the past so as not to turn off tourists, but they can't do that now that they have a missing person.

[David Panzer]

From what I've heard, the authorities released the suspects in the attempt to gather more information. While it may have been a botch, they felt they were doing the right thing. Arubian law is essentially Dutch law, and under Dutch law, suspects can be held without being formally charged as a matter of intimidation. Forced confessions, while in some cases being true, can be false and lead investigators on a goose chase. It's a difficult position since you get can get burned either way.

The courts, however, have the same standard that American courts have: Guilty or Innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. The steps in reaching that verdict are different than American courts. There is no jury, the judge can cross-examine witnesses, a sole judge presides over a case from the pretrial hearings to the actual trial. When a verdict is reached, reasons are given in explaining how that verdict was determined. There is a court of appeals, which the trial is reviewed by a panel of 3 judges, but they look at the judge involved in the case to determine if he did anything in violation of the law in his or her handling of the case.

[jahkneebee]

Really cannot say I've been keeping up with the Aruba incident, but you gotta live on an island for a while (not visit) to understand some of the politics. These are not American, Aruban, or Dutch politics I am talking about. It's the politics of families and gangs, and not in the definitions of Americans.

First off, I am a US citizen on a US Caribbean island (St Thomas). In the Caribbean, families are waaaay extended: think like a bee and go from flower to flower. The society is matriarchal, but that system is failing due to Americanization, globalization, and Wesern materialism (no criticism here, as I participate and benefit from same, but the matriarchal control system has failed). There are gangs cropping up that take the place of family (somewhat similar to inner cities), and they can be violent in order to exert social control (and they do).

Add to this stew resentment of the haves by the have nots, and a vigorous slave/prostitute trade passing through the island of Aruba (from South America to across the Atlantic), and you have a few more variables.

The final mix is the unwillingness of any of the islands' local population to give up any information to authorities. This is due to all of the above: everybody is related to everybody else's extended family (Note: the daddy judge as a witness), the gangs will react with violent force even within family lines, and the already existing transient crime modalities (drug trade and prostitution) that are strongly in place with bribery and intimidation of police and, especially, government officials.

Despite all that I LOVE ALL THE ISLANDS! You do not have to go far to meet a beautiful-minded person on these beautiful islands, and each island has its own flavor. Aruba saw a huge amount of investment (casinos) over a very short preiod of time. When I visited last about 15 years ago, it was in the middle of this transition, and I met a lot of wonderful people. It saddens me when any community hosts the problems that this island has recently had. Realize that these are all very small fragile ecosystems, both in terms of resources and people.

As for the politics of the Caribbean:Z'ha'dum Dweller, guess what? I grew up in Arkansas in the Orville Faubus/Guy Mutt Jones years. It's worse down here in St Thomas than that, and we are an American island!

[Dr Maturin]

As for the politics of the Caribbean:Z'ha'dum Dweller, guess what? I grew up in Arkansas in the Orville Faubus/Guy Mutt Jones years.

Emperor Cartagia: Whoooooooooo?

I moved to Arkansas seven years ago from the San Jouquin Valley in northern California. I like this area of Arkansas. Beautiful scenery, great economy, minimal snow, and lots of great, diverse people.

[Towelmaster]

That is my point. It's a criminal-friendly law system.

How do you mean? Criminal-friendly in that they actually feed the prisoners?
- Six arrests
- Four men in custody
- ongoing investigation
- lots of pressure applied on all prisoners
- lawyers not allowed to talk to clients for fear of informationsharing so they have no real representation at the moment.

What more would you want in this phase of the investigation? Thumbscrews are out in the 21st century. I don't know what you wish for here. Surely you cannot mean that they are guilty by decree, no trial necessary?

Apparently, they swept crime under the rug in the past so as not to turn off tourists, but they can't do that now that they have a missing person.

Apparently? I have heard things that indicate quite the opposite. May I know the source of this information? A URL? I'm not kidding here btw, I am indeed interested. Rumours are flying everywhere so it would be nice to have a source.

Update : I'm investigating this, perhaps I'll find something I can post.
One more thing: I'm not defending the island. The Dutch consider the Antilles as an inconvenient left-over from colonial days. It only costs the Netherlands big money and we would rather get rid of them. Unfortunately the population does not want to be independent. Which is odd, I would say. But there you have it...

[AaronB]

Update : I'm investigating this, perhaps I'll find something I can post.
One more thing: I'm not defending the island. The Dutch consider the Antilles as an inconvenient left-over from colonial days. It only costs the Netherlands big money and we would rather get rid of them. Unfortunately the population does not want to be independent. Which is odd, I would say. But there you have it...

WRT not wanting to be independant, it sounds like Puerto Rico for the US. Every so often the question of becoming the 51st state comes up and it is always voted down. They are getting too much from the US federal government currently to become a state and get far less.

It reminds me of a joke I once heard. A divorce lawyer calls a lady and explains if she divorces her husband, she can get 50% of what he makes. She ask him why should she get only 50% when she gets 100% of what he makes right now.

[Towelmaster]

Puerto Rico might indeed be a good comparison. Do they have their own independent legal system?

[Capt.Montoya]

livin' la vida loca

Puerto Rico might indeed be a good comparison. Do they have their own independent legal system?

They do, their capital punishment is making you listen to Ricky Martin non-stop.

[Dr Maturin]

They do, their capital punishment is making you listen to Ricky Martin non-stop.

I guess that'd be "La Muerte Loca."

[AaronB]

They do, their capital punishment is making you listen to Ricky Martin non-stop.

<sarcasem>
That is almost gulagesq. Where is Amnisty International when you need them?
</sarcasem>