The Rampant, Irresponsible Political Thread

[Doom Shepherd]

and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration

So... Libertarians, you've just been defined as an extremist hate group.

I hate hate

I hate stupid, and whoever wrote that above-quoted definition is just LOADED with it.

And I can only say that because I've chosen not to assume malice when incompetence is just as likely.

[Dr Maturin]

First off, the report was from the Dept. of Homeland Security, not the White House.

DHS is not an independent organization. How did Napolitano get the job?

And second, Homeland Security also put out a report in late January warning about left-wing extremists.

You mean the mean that targeted specific groups while this trash from yesterday generalizes against veterans and others?

Sounds "Fair and Balanced" to me.

Sounds like something else to me. Maybe "The Most Busted Name in News."

I don't see what this has to do with anything Obama's done. Care to expand on it?

His cabinet appointee released a discriminatory report and distributed it to PDs across the nation. That sums it up.

Gee...we just recently elected an African-American to be president. Is it possible for ANYone to be surprised by the "rise of right-wing extremists" looking for recruits?

THERE IS NO RISE. That's the point. Right-wing groups are not white supremacist. The bilious bastards in the media tried this with the Minuteman Project. They had to give up when black chapters opened.

I hate hate...

An admirable position. I would hope that you would direct it at those who want to see Western nations in ruins because they are not like them.

Leave it to this place to play the race card right off the bat. Could it be UNPRECEDENTED spending and a hard turn to the left for this country that brought the people out in droves? Unlike certain "million-man marches," these gatherings were not race-based. So let's drop that right now.

[Jan]

THERE IS NO RISE. That's the point. Right-wing groups are not white supremacist.

See? There you have a perfect example of why I've always discouraged labeling here. Do remember it.

Leave it to this place to play the race card right off the bat. Could it be UNPRECEDENTED spending and a hard turn to the left for this country that brought the people out in droves? Unlike certain "million-man marches," these gatherings were not race-based. So let's drop that right now.

Yes, let's drop generalizations about 'this place'. Immediately.

Brought the people out in droves? Are you talking about the 'tea party' protests? It's hard to tell since they haven't been mentioned since the thread was revived but that's the only 'droves' I've heard of today.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

See? There you have a perfect example of why I've always discouraged labeling here. Do remember it.

No, no, no. I want to be labeled a right-winger. I am right-winger! But saying that there is a "rise in extremism" because people are reacting to radical and reactionary changes is misleading. Saying that War on Terrorism veterans are likely to cause it is discriminatory and reprehensible.

Brought the people out in droves? Are you talking about the 'tea party' protests? It's hard to tell since they haven't been mentioned since the thread was revived but that's the only 'droves' I've heard of today.

Hmmm, just a day before the national tea parties.

[Karachi Vyce]

I don't see what this has to do with anything Obama's done. Care to expand on it?

As the Doc pointed out, DHS isn't an independent entity. It is PART of Obama's administration.

Gee...we just recently elected an African-American to be president. Is it possible for ANYone to be surprised by the "rise of right-wing extremists" looking for recruits?

You haven't read the report, have you.

Wait, why am I asking - based upon your very answer, it's clear that you have not.

So let me inform you. Give you some knowledge.

There is no actual evidence of any right-wing extremism presented in the report.

None.

Like, AT ALL.

The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence, but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues.

The report is full of nonsense like that. Absolute NO DATA. Just plenty of "well, it COULD BE possible..."

Let me hammer in that point a little harder.

The report, titled "Right-wing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," dated April 7, states that "threats from white supremacist and violent anti-government groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts."

So, you ask, why do they even bring it up. Here you go:

The current economic and political climate has some similarities to the 1990s when rightwing extremism experienced a resurgence fueled largely by an economic recession, criticism about the outsourcing of jobs, and the perceived threat to U.S. power and sovereignty by other foreign powers.

As some pundits have correctly stated since this report, it wasn't the Right which was beating the war drums over outsourcing, it was the Left, over the course of the last eight years under Bush. And Obama himself engaged in it too, with some of his campaign rhetoric regarding NAFTA.

That's not even approaching the utterly assinine view that concerns about the recession and fears that America is losing its status & sovereignty in the world suddenly, somehow, equal terrorist ideology.

The worst smear in this bullshit report comes actually aimed at the military.

The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.

Awesome. Painting returning veterans as potential right-wing terrorists. Their actual justification for that is Tim McVeigh. NO, REALLY:

After Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1990-1991, some returning military veteransùincluding Timothy McVeighùjoined or associated with rightwing extremist groups.

This was enough of an insult that the American Legion sent a letter to Napolitano demanding an apology.

It's nauseating. And we've entered dark days. For everyone who's bitched about how the Bush Administration and Republicans were quick to label anyone who opposed the Iraq war as "unpatriotic", the Obama Administration has literally just declared those who oppose his agenda as enemies of the state.

And all without presenting ANY evidence that there are legitimate threats being presented by groups - UNLIKE the left-wing extremists report, which was referenced earlier in this thread, as that report actually DOES have SPECIFIC examples of leftist extremist groups.

And to top it all off, what should be further embarrassing to Napolitano & the Obama administration, is that a top-ranking Democrat on the House Committee on Homeland Security wrote a letter to Napolitano today, telling her she's batshit crazy.

Well.....that's just my editorializing. He was a little more civil to her:

The top House Democrat overseeing the Department of Homeland Security is demanding that officials there explain how and why they wrote and released a controversial report identifying veterans as potential terrorist threats.

Rep. Bennie G. Thompson of Mississippi, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said in a letter to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano that he was "dumbfounded" such a report would be issued.

"This report appears to raise significant issues involving the privacy and civil liberties of many Americans -- including war veterans," Mr. Thompson said in the letter sent Tuesday.

"As I am certain you agree, freedom of association and freedom of speech are guaranteed to all Americans -- whether a person's beliefs, whatever their political orientation, are 'extremist' or not," Mr. Thompson said.

The report "blurred the line," and Mr. Thompson said he is "disappointed and surprised that the department would allow this report to be disseminated" to law enforcement officials nationwide.

Also Wednesday, Ms. Napolitano issued a statement standing by the report, which she personally had reviewed before it was issued. She insisted that DHS never would investigate based on political ideology and agreed to meet the head of the American Legion, who already had expressed anger over the report.

The Washington Times reported Tuesday that the department's Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) released a report titled Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment on April 7. It identified as potential terrorist threats people who collect guns, veterans, supporters of border control, and pro-life advocates.

"I am particularly struck by the report's conclusion which states that I&A 'will be working with its state and local partners over the next several months to ascertain with greater regional specificity the rise in rightwing extremist activity in the United States with a particular emphasis on the political, economic, and social factors that drive rightwing extremist radicalization,'" Mr. Thompson said, demanding to know what types of activities DHS had planned for "the next several months."

For the record, Thompson isn't a moderate. He's sued the Bush Administration in the past for alleged Constitutional violations, and was one of the congressional Democrats who voted in 2004 to block Ohio's electoral college votes from counting in order to delegitimize Bush's 2004 victory.

What a goddamn travesty this report is, though. When you've even got a guy who's as liberal as Thompson writing you a letter essentially telling you that you've gone off the deep end and are perilously close to abusing power, you know you've screwed up. Or you should, but who knows, Napolitano supposedly is still "standing by" her report.

[Jan]

Sorry, missed that part of your post.

No, no, no. I want to be labeled a right-winger. I am right-winger! But saying that there is a "rise in extremism" because people are reacting to radical and reactionary changes is misleading. Saying that War on Terrorism veterans are likely to cause it is discriminatory and reprehensible.

What I read is that the extremists are trying to recruit the returning servicemen because they'd be particularly valuable. That seems pretty obvious. But it doesn't mean that the veterans would be any more susceptible than anybody else. Seems to me it would be much the opposite.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

What gets me is that this horseshit report uses the term "terrorist" but they won't use it to refer to the war in which we are currently engaged.

[Jan]

I don't have any problem with that.

Jan

[Marsden]

Gotta watch out for those American Legions, they're hotbeds of extremism. Next the Boy/Girl Scouts will be on the watch list while the Taliban will be getting the Humanitarian of the Year award, those poor misunderstood people that like to murder women in arenas because they did terrible things like think they were human beings with rights and not cattle. No, nothing is wrong here.


Sorry if I posted out of place here, offense is not my intention, nor intrusion.

[Jan]

Post away, Marsden. Things sometimes get heated here but its contained to vigorous discussion, flame-free.

Napolitano apologizes but the head of the VFW defends the report.

Glen M. Gardner Jr., the national commander of the 2.2 million-member VFW, said the assessment "should have been worded differently" but served a vital purpose.

"A government that does not assess internal and external security threats would be negligent of a critical public responsibility," he said in a statement.

Jan

[Doom Shepherd]

"A government that does not assess internal and external security threats would be negligent of a critical public responsibility," he said in a statement.

Perhaps... but a government that assesses them ass-backwardly... is a bigger threat to its own people's ultimate security than any other.

For example... it was the assessment of 1930's era Germany that a significant internal security threat to it was its Jewish population.

[David Panzer]

Didn't the DHS release a similar report about "right wing extremists" last year?

[Karachi Vyce]

What I read is that the extremists are trying to recruit the returning servicemen because they'd be particularly valuable. That seems pretty obvious. But it doesn't mean that the veterans would be any more susceptible than anybody else. Seems to me it would be much the opposite.

Jan

Apparently you did not. Nor did you apparently read my earlier post.

Because the actual report HAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY RECRUITING BEING DONE.

BY ANYONE.

Perhaps that emphasis will help hammer in that point.

[circularREASON]

I am new to this thread / discussion but I would just like to add this if I can.

Quote First post. Dr Maturin

" Look at the UK and what happened there when they banned guns. Government mandated "smoke free" zones, arresting people for praying at a public school, socialized health care...all of this REEKS of Nightwatch way more than the Patriot Act does."

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As someone who lives and works in the UK my opinions are as follows.

These are moans, but please bear with me till the end..........


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There is no freedom anymore here. But that is not the only gripe.

CCTV. Surely we all have rights not to be spied upon by anyone - but this is not the case as the CCTV secret police are watching us all the time.

We are IMPORTING workers to take jobs. We have a un-employment rate of 2 million plus, and we are importing workers. WTF??? Has the government ever heard of TRAINING????

Vehicle Tracking / Paying per mile for road travel. Yep they can tell where you are when you are in the car as well. You cant even drive your car down the roads you have paid for through your taxes, without being charged.

(LONDON: CONGESTION CHARGE - coming to a city near you 2010!!)

Anti-Terrorism measures. (sarcasm) Are we really under threat? If the Taliban are really to be feared then where are they? What have we done in iraq except breed a new generation of terrorists? Was saddam the real threat? When we were getting bombed in the UK by the IRA where we the anti-terrorism measures then?

The Right to Protest. It is interesting that in the UK, Muslim (fact!!) extremists are allowed to hurl abuse at our brave boys and girls of the Armed Forces when they come home. However the moment I shout something back at them (in theory) I am arrested, bundled in the back of a police van, and taken away because the poilice do not want me to cause any agrro. What the Fuck??? You only have to look at the recent G20 protests in London. One woman hammered by a police officer for having an opinion.

A nurse working for the NHS is not even allowed to wear a St Christopher at work and is threatened with the sack, but other faiths are openly allowed to display their faith items - for fear of upsetting them and being sued by the PC BRIGGADE.

Schools can no-longer discipline pupils for fear of being prosecuted by the yogurt knitting do-gooders. The pupils are taught from an early age their RIGHTS and how to use them.

Someone can break into your house, and steal everything that is valuable to you. If you touch them you can be arrested for assault, while the burgler gets away scott free.

A soldier in the British army is denied the basic stuff to enable him to do his duty because the government values our troops as much as someone values dog shit when they step in it, but still sends them away to die for queen and country. (what a wonderful way to breed a fanatic)

Our government treats the elderly with contempt, yet welcomes in every tom, dick and harry giving them a place to stay and benefits.

Drug dealers on our streets are ignored by the police because they are more motivated by nicking someone doing 32 MPH in a 30MPH zone.

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Right.... Rant Over.

My opinion is that there is no freedom. The system is set up to make you think there is. We are all being controlled in one way or another. Wether it be from Taxation measures, or policing measures we are all controlled.

But to what / who's agenda?

Its enough to make you want to join an organisation so that your voice will be heard above all the corruption - no matter which side of which fence you may sit on (maybe thats the point).



Oh and Karachi Vyce. Did anyone ever tell you that it is rude to shout?

[frulad]

Karachi-

You quote a lot of sources stating what you claim the report really says. Can you please source them. It would help in my evaluating your arguement a little more. Also, since you asked others if they had read the actual report, I am assuming that you have. Do you have a quick link to it online somewhere?

Thanks.