Shifting Blame

[ToonPatrol]

Hi there,

Bit of an odd question, I hate to ask this one, as I have an enormous amount of respect for the man. In the past, he has helped me (and I don’t mean that I read his book for guidance, I mean he personally helped me out) so I do really like the guy.

However, the more I see, the more tweets I read, I’m noticing something very unpleasant. JMS seems to always shift the blame, if something is good, he takes credit, if something has gone wrong, he’s very fast to pin it on someone else.

I’m sure we all have that friend, the one who it’s never their fault, who is the first one to point the finger. That person is deeply unpleasant.

I first noticed this when I read an old interview about Babylon 5, where he seemed to constantly humblebrag about how his show was superior to Star Trek. In one he started nitpicking (yes Voyager’s computer did receive an infection from cheese, but Babylon 5 had its share of poor episodes).

Then I read his tweets about Sense8 where he’ll throw the other writers under the bus.

When talking about B5 in widescreen and HD, he blamed it all on the VFX department and how they didn’t do what he asked. I know there are posts from them where they have refuted this and posted their own much more detailed story, stating that he didn’t ask for what he claimed and even if he did, some of it wasn’t even possible at the time. Now maybe they are shifting the blame, but I’m more inclined to believe the technician than the writer on this.

This one is odd, most 90s shows have trouble getting into HD, why pretend B5 had some superior wisdom, which every other show lacked? Why the need to find a villain or fallguy when it was simply a technical limitation of the time? It’s boorish.

It finally all clicked for me when I read him talking about World War Z, talking about how much better his draft of the script was and how another writer screwed it up.

Am I wrong on this one, or is there a pattern? I’m not expecting him to be perfect or anything like that, but it does become hard to respect.

Or is there something I’m not getting? I have bought his autobiography but haven’t read it yet, which may shed some more light.

As I said, I do like him and I’d love to get some sort of perspective where this isn’t as bad as it feels, but you wouldn’t associate with a friend or coworker who did this.

[Jan]

Welcome, ToonPatrol.

Some of your examples I'll try to address but some are too nebulous so if you'd care to expand, feel free. First and foremost, anybody who's followed JMS for more than five minutes knows that he's quite justifiably proud of his writing talent, while constantly challenging himself to get better. That can come across as only wanting his own vision. But I've seen so many instances of his praising the people who brought his vision, particularly B5, to life that I don't think his ego is out of control.

I first noticed this when I read an old interview about Babylon 5, where he seemed to constantly humblebrag about how his show was superior to Star Trek. In one he started nitpicking (yes Voyager’s computer did receive an infection from cheese, but Babylon 5 had its share of poor episodes).

Presumably you're aware of the history between B5 and Trek. But I'm not familiar with the post you're referring to, so can't comment.

Then I read his tweets about Sense8 where he’ll throw the other writers under the bus.

For example? I know there was a tweet the other day where somebody criticized an actor but I don't think that's what you mean. In fact, given some of what I've heard of that production, I've thought JMS has been quite diplomatic.

When talking about B5 in widescreen and HD, he blamed it all on the VFX department and how they didn’t do what he asked. I know there are posts from them where they have refuted this and posted their own much more detailed story, stating that he didn’t ask for what he claimed and even if he did, some of it wasn’t even possible at the time. Now maybe they are shifting the blame, but I’m more inclined to believe the technician than the writer on this.

There's what he was told at the time and the reality. I've never heard that the widescreen CGI wasn't possible in any of the tech interviews, only that that's what he said he was told. There seem to be conflicting accounts about who made a decision to not provide Foundation with the monitors that would be necessary and at least one of those possibilites is dead.

One thing that sometimes does come up to bite JMS is his regular claims that he was involved in and made decisions about every aspect of the show. That's true but he's also made it clear that in many or most cases it's a matter of just saying 'yes' to the one doing the work. Thing is, the final *responsibility* was his and I think he felt that keenly, especially since B5 was his first showrunner gig.

This one is odd, most 90s shows have trouble getting into HD, why pretend B5 had some superior wisdom, which every other show lacked? Why the need to find a villain or fallguy when it was simply a technical limitation of the time? It’s boorish.

Huh? Sorry, is this a continuation of the last paragraph? Not following.

It finally all clicked for me when I read him talking about World War Z, talking about how much better his draft of the script was and how another writer screwed it up.

Fact: The other writer DID screw it up. Massively. There is NO resemblance to the book on the screen and virtually nothing left of JMS' scripts, either, except Pitt's character name. In fact, this one's easy to prove. Both drafts of JMS' scripts have been floating around online for years now. Find them and check it out for yourself. I found both of them faithful to the book.

Am I wrong on this one, or is there a pattern? I’m not expecting him to be perfect or anything like that, but it does become hard to respect.

Or is there something I’m not getting? I have bought his autobiography but haven’t read it yet, which may shed some more light.

As I said, I do like him and I’d love to get some sort of perspective where this isn’t as bad as it feels, but you wouldn’t associate with a friend or coworker who did this.

It's a matter of point of view. Does he have flaws, No argument. Does he have an ego? In some things yes, in others no. I don't know how much insight to this particular question his autobiography will give you but I highly recommend it.

Again, welome.
Jan

[ToonPatrol]

Hi there,

Thank you so much for your response. I was expecting people to scream “troll” or something.

The Star Trek quote, I got it from the Lurkers guide, so from Usenet originally?

“When I wrote the episode, Outbreak hadn't been promoted yet or known about, Voyager hadn't aired, ER hadn't told me what they were going to do ...if I'd known there would be such a glut...well, I probably would've done so anyway, because this isn't so much about the plague and saying its' dangerous, but about our attitudes when we are confronted by this, which really hasn't been dealt with that much in SF. (And I'm sorry, but don't even *try* to bring the Voyager story into this; the ship is threatened by a cheese contamination? I almost fell off my chair.)”

Now, obviously everyones taste is different and maybe something is lost in the tone, but this reads as terribly arrogant. Babylon 5 has plenty of bad and rediculous episodes (remember the MMA one?).

I couldn’t find the exact post I was looking for, but I did find this (slightly different) one where the original team refuted JMS about remastering.

https://www.facebook.com/17849086557...5190771902639/

Now, obviously he’s not a technician, so he may not be able to articulate every detail or may misunderstand some things. However, most shows, from Trek, The X Files, even recent shows like Breaking Bad have all had to be remastered, every show made certain mistakes. Yet Vince Gilligan and the Trek team aren’t posting false technical claims, or blaming something on a deadman. They simply acknowledge the technology of the time and that certain mistakes were made.

I can’t find the exact tweets, but I’ve certainly read him criticise the finale of Sense8 (which he wasn’t involved in) but I’m also sure I’ve read him criticise the second season also.

I know JMS mentioned having other commitments, but so did the actors (didn’t Alfonso Herrera have to fly back and forth from The Exorcist set), they all found the time, surely JMS could have skyped in to the writers room? It just seemed undignified (to me) if it is important, stay involved, but if you wash your hands of the show, then complaining about it seems churlish.

Although very good point about World War Z, I haven’t read the book or seen the film. It’s just that tweet clicked and made me see this pattern.

[Jan]

Hi there,

Thank you so much for your response. I was expecting people to scream “troll” or something.

The Star Trek quote, I got it from the Lurkers guide, so from Usenet originally?

“When I wrote the episode, Outbreak hadn't been promoted yet or known about, Voyager hadn't aired, ER hadn't told me what they were going to do ...if I'd known there would be such a glut...well, I probably would've done so anyway, because this isn't so much about the plague and saying its' dangerous, but about our attitudes when we are confronted by this, which really hasn't been dealt with that much in SF. (And I'm sorry, but don't even *try* to bring the Voyager story into this; the ship is threatened by a cheese contamination? I almost fell off my chair.)”

Now, obviously everyones taste is different and maybe something is lost in the tone, but this reads as terribly arrogant. Babylon 5 has plenty of bad and rediculous episodes (remember the MMA one?).

This is a link to the archived post - yes, it appears to be from Usenet and probably in response to a comment about the Drafa Plague. In fact, here's a link to the original USENET thread. Which seems to have possibly carried over from Genie? I don't know. But given the poster's apology downthread on Usenet, it appears that JMS may well have been responding in the tone in which he was addressed which appears to have been quite snotty. He's just a guy after all, and under no obligation to not poke back when poked. That's part of the problem with only seeing one side of the exchange, which is what you're reacting to. While I wasn't on Genie or Compuserve, I was on AOL and much of the Usenet days so I'm somewhat familiar with how the exchanges went.

I couldn’t find the exact post I was looking for, but I did find this (slightly different) one where the original team refuted JMS about remastering.

https://www.facebook.com/17849086557...5190771902639/

Now, obviously he’s not a technician, so he may not be able to articulate every detail or may misunderstand some things. However, most shows, from Trek, The X Files, even recent shows like Breaking Bad have all had to be remastered, every show made certain mistakes. Yet Vince Gilligan and the Trek team aren’t posting false technical claims, or blaming something on a deadman. They simply acknowledge the technology of the time and that certain mistakes were made.

Maybe somebody who cares more could address this? I'll note that the recent remastering on HBO Max does appear to possibly have been done from the masters he's referred to? Or maybe one generation down? I do know that the difference in both sound and color is startlingly better.

I can’t find the exact tweets, but I’ve certainly read him criticise the finale of Sense8 (which he wasn’t involved in) but I’m also sure I’ve read him criticise the second season also.

I know JMS mentioned having other commitments, but so did the actors (didn’t Alfonso Herrera have to fly back and forth from The Exorcist set), they all found the time, surely JMS could have skyped in to the writers room? It just seemed undignified (to me) if it is important, stay involved, but if you wash your hands of the show, then complaining about it seems churlish.

Then you seem to have seen something I haven't. And I'm pretty well known for following his posts pretty closely. When you find an example of what you're talking about, please post it. What I have seen, that you might be reacting to is that he's refused to answer questions about the show at all for quite some time after getting dogpiled when SENSE8 was cancelled. Why? Because he explained how the industry works. Yes, they eventually got the finale but that was a major abberation. As for your opinion of whether he should have made the time to participate in a 'writer's room' (which from his reports of the process didn't exist), none of us is qualified to have any opinion on that.

And speaking of opinions, yeah, I'm about to call a mild 'troll' on this one.

Although very good point about World War Z, I haven’t read the book or seen the film. It’s just that tweet clicked and made me see this pattern.

JMS' friend and mentor is famously quoted as saying: “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” The above statement shows that you failed that test. Badly. If you haven't *at least* read the book and seen the movie, you have no business at all forming any opinion about it. He's right. You're wrong.

Bottom line is, JMS is a guy, just like any other. He's got a temper. He sometimes has lapses in memory. He can be really stubborn (and I've butted heads with him more than once). Yes, in some cases he can be arrogant. All of us can...can't we? But he can also be gracious and kind and he's given a LOT of his time over the years to informing the fans about the nuts and bolts and realities of making TV and if he sometimes gets snotty, so be it.

None of this is meant to come down on you too hard. You're very welcome to ask any questions you like and disagree as much as you like as long as it's politely and respectfully.

[ToonPatrol]

yeah, I'm about to call a mild 'troll' on this one.

I can assure you, I’m not a troll... if I am, I must have done an awful lot of research, from obscure post from the FX team from Babylon 5 to Sense8 making of posts, that’s Phd level trolling.

The honest answer is, I’m someone who likes his work and has been helped by him, but I’ve seen something which looks quite ugly and I’m looking/hoping to be proven wrong.

you failed that test. Badly. If you haven't *at least* read the book and seen the movie, you have no business at all forming any opinion about it

If I was talking about World War Z itself, certainly, but if someone claims that “all my exes are crazy” sooner or later you have to wonder about that person. Perhaps they are being truthful and all of their exes were insane, but more often than not it reflects on them.

[Jan]

I can assure you, I’m not a troll... if I am, I must have done an awful lot of research, from obscure post from the FX team from Babylon 5 to Sense8 making of posts, that’s Phd level trolling.

The honest answer is, I’m someone who likes his work and has been helped by him, but I’ve seen something which looks quite ugly and I’m looking/hoping to be proven wrong.



If I was talking about World War Z itself, certainly, but if someone claims that “all my exes are crazy” sooner or later you have to wonder about that person. Perhaps they are being truthful and all of their exes were insane, but more often than not it reflects on them.

Again, not accusing you of being a troll but you pointed to the WWZ thing twice as being pivotal to your opinion with zero knowledge about it at all. See Harlan's quote. It's absolutely on-point.

I'm afraid I haven't seen anything that really backs up your feeling. As I said, he's just a guy. And maybe there's an issue with the terminology? You claimed he "threw the other writers under the bus" but that seems to be that he didn't make time to help write the finale due to other commitments. Did Lilly also "throw the other writers under the bus"? She's not listed as a writer, either. Three writers who hadn't been on the writing staff before joined Lana in the finale.

There are a number of us here, not just me, who are very conversant with his work and online and in-person behavior at cons. As I said, you're welcome to ask. But as he's helped you in some way in the past, perhaps you can change the lens to allow for the benefit of the doubt. My experience, since 1996 is that he's generally quite professional in talking (or staying silent in some cases) about his experiences at least until the job's over, and then he'll sometimes be more blunt. As in the situation with Crusade. Talk about the crazy ex!

[Jan]

I have bought his autobiography but haven’t read it yet, which may shed some more light.

Been thinking about this and I find I'd be interested to find out what your conclusion will be after you read the autobiography. Because the fact is, JMS has walked away from a great many jobs in in life and you'll find out a lot about why in that book as well as a lot about what made him the person he is. I know the opinion I came away with but I think I'd enjoy the conversation after you read it and we both have the exact same source material to point to and discuss.

(Yes, I know I shouldn't be serial posting. Don't tell the Admin on me! )

[ToonPatrol]

perhaps you can change the lens to allow for the benefit of the doubt

Haha, that’s the aim. It’s one of those situations where it is hard to judge things when close and outside clearer perspectives are helpful.

Did Lilly also "throw the other writers under the bus"?

That’s actually a great example. I had to hunt through twitter, but I found the tweets that I remember, which I felt anyway were “throwing under the bus” along with Lilly Wachowski’s comments.

“I wasn't involved with the writing on the finale due to other commitments, but I can say that their story would have gone a very different (and 100% more satisfying) direction had the show continued. But it required another full season to develop, and that was no longer an option”
Now, perhaps that just means if they had more time, they all would have done better. Yet it also denigrates the existing episode.

And in response to a fan saying Kala was destroyed in the finale.
“Thanks, and yeah, wasn't able to be involved with the writing of that one due to other commitments...she was a character I very definitely worked always to protect.”
It sounds like he is saying Kala was destroyed because he wasn’t involved in writing the finale.

Conversely, Lilly Wachowski was asked about Matrix 4 and said she wasn’t involved but “I can’t wait to hear. I hope it’s better than the original.” That just seems like a far more graceful answer.

I'd be interested to find out what your conclusion will be after you read the autobiography.

Absolutely. I was fighting my way through a tedious novel, determined to finish, but after this, I’m giving up on that and I’ll start reading Becoming Superman.

[Jan]

That’s actually a great example. I had to hunt through twitter, but I found the tweets that I remember, which I felt anyway were “throwing under the bus” along with Lilly Wachowski’s comments.

“I wasn't involved with the writing on the finale due to other commitments, but I can say that their story would have gone a very different (and 100% more satisfying) direction had the show continued. But it required another full season to develop, and that was no longer an option”
Now, perhaps that just means if they had more time, they all would have done better. Yet it also denigrates the existing episode.

I guess we'll have to disagree. I don't see him saying anything bad about that movie at all. Of course if there had been more time the story would have been better! He made no secret of the fact that the BPO conflict wasn't anywhere near to whole of the story. Any more than the Drakh Plague was the whole of the Crusade story. Here's another tweet (I wasn't able to find the one you quoted) where he says substantially the same thing. Note that it's almost two years after the finale.

And in response to a fan saying Kala was destroyed in the finale.
“Thanks, and yeah, wasn't able to be involved with the writing of that one due to other commitments...she was a character I very definitely worked always to protect.”
It sounds like he is saying Kala was destroyed because he wasn’t involved in writing the finale.

Again, can't find the tweet (Can you include links going forward? Thanks) but without context, I'd guess that Kala needed a fair amount of protection given her marriage to somebody connected with the counterfeit drug trade and her emotional affair with a gangster. I'm betting that it was also a fair while after the finale aired? I think you're reading something that's not really there. JMS is quite a straightforward guy.

Conversely, Lilly Wachowski was asked about Matrix 4 and said she wasn’t involved but “I can’t wait to hear. I hope it’s better than the original.” That just seems like a far more graceful answer.

Also a PR answer. Matrix 4 isn't out yet. That's trying to compare apples and grapes, IMO.

Absolutely. I was fighting my way through a tedious novel, determined to finish, but after this, I’m giving up on that and I’ll start reading Becoming Superman.

It's not always an easy book to read emotionally but it's quite an insight. I think you'll understand more about his relationship with his characters (like Kala) after reading it.

And not to beat a dead horse, I do still think you'd find it illuminating to compare the WWZ book to the movie and then look at JMS' scripts. I've read other adaptations of his and he's very good about staying true to the source material.

[LateArrival]

Hope this isn't seen as derailing the topic as drifted in from reading about B5-related novels and other fun things...

Personally skipped over the initial purchase of Becoming Superman as figured it wouldn't have anything useful for "me" as a reader/Always-Late B5 Fan. Then read his introduction to the 1998-ish script release of The Coming of Shadows and realized what I was missing. The book is AMAZING. Painful at times as he didn't exactly have a storybook childhood, but it is absolutely worth reading. Seems that while he isn't perfect, he is always is up front and not the type to deceive or rewrite history. Sort of thought that Garibaldi's speech to the "Recently Promoted" board of Edgar's Industries was a certain someone speaking candidly that people should tell him when they thought he was wrong - but be Veeeeeery Suuuuuure about it first.

[Jan]

Seems that while he isn't perfect, he is always is up front and not the type to deceive or rewrite history. Sort of thought that Garibaldi's speech to the "Recently Promoted" board of Edgar's Industries was a certain someone speaking candidly that people should tell him when they thought he was wrong - but be Veeeeeery Suuuuuure about it first.

LOL - oh, yeah. Obviously an autobiography isn't going to be the time and place for self-flagellation, but I do think there was an honesty in it that was incredibly self-aware. And parts of it, even after the childhood stuff had to have been hard to put out there for somebody who's essentially a pretty private guy.

As for this discussion, I think that the part where he discusses "The Gathering" is quite relevant. While he doesn't spend any time being complimentary about the director, any blame is situated entirely on him. There was a memo where he disected it that was published in the script books where he talked about what needed to be improved (think: the PPG rifles) and there's no blame there, just an insistance on it getting better.

One thing for sure, I'll bet ToonPatrol will see many things in the autobiography that appeared in JMS' work later on. As a writer, I'd think that would be interesting.

[Looney]

I CAN'T BELIEVE I READ THE WHOLE THING!!!!!!

This entire discussion is another reason I really try to avoid learning too much about the people who create the art I love. I've been burned too many times. But this has yet to be the case with JMS. I'm pretty much in the same camp as Jan on this one. Everything I've ever heard about him comes down almost exactly as she describes him. People are people and people in the public eye can be scrutinized for things that were intentional and unintentional. I mean when you dig deeply you can discover a lot of $#*7 you might not like, but it might also just be a matter of misinterpretation. But I am glad it created a lively discussion. 😉👍

[Jan]

I CAN'T BELIEVE I READ THE WHOLE THING!!!!!!

This entire discussion is another reason I really try to avoid learning too much about the people who create the art I love. I've been burned too many times.

You're absolutely right about learning too much about some people, Looney! I don't CARE about somebody's medical procedures (B5 actor), neuroses (Trek actor) or potty training (formerly favorite writer-when I was several decades younger) issues!! And it's funny (to me) that I started following JMS at a time when I was *very* suspicious about the way people presented themselves online. I, and an entire chat group, had just been scammed by somebody in a grief and loss chat room.

Over the course of years, I 'caught' JMS telling the truth (read: got outside corroboration of something) often enough that I learned to trust him within the bounds of necessary PR or diplomacy. Sometimes what he *hasn't* said or simply didn't address has been telling. And we all pretty much know what 'I cannot verify or deny' means! At the same time, I think that ToonPatrol may have tried reading negative things into statements that were quite innocuous.

And yes, nice discussion!!

[LateArrival]

As for this discussion, I think that the part where he discusses "The Gathering" is quite relevant. While he doesn't spend any time being complimentary about the director, any blame is situated entirely on him. There was a memo where he disected it that was published in the script books where he talked about what needed to be improved (think: the PPG rifles) and there's no blame there, just an insistance on it getting better.

Just read that Post Mortem memo two weeks ago in Vol 1!! Would say it fell under Constructive Criticism (Or Tough Love) as he wanted to provide the best product possible, but also stated up front that the people involved in the pilot should be praised "within an inch of their lives". Some times can only learn by doing, and if memory serves, the series proper began filming with Infection rather than Midnight on the Firing Line as he KNEW it would take a few eps for the Wrinkles to be Smoothed Out. By shooting in that order, the "1st" episode was completed after the cast/staff had gotten their footing, and was thus better. ...though also recall reading something about parts of Infection falling off the end of a pier...

Sometimes wonder if G'Kar showing up to Snatch-n-Grab all the signed Declarations was a subtle dig at this, as pretty much everything can be "better" given time, experience, and reflection. Except for the first draft of Soul Hunter where The Writer was "Temporarily Possessed by an Idiot". (...am currently reading through the Mountain o Script/Other Books)

[Triple F]

The live-action pieces were recorded in widescreen, but unknown to me the CGI and composite shots were being rendered in normal aspect ratio. Didn't know this until long after the show was done because nobody at Foundation told me.

https://twitter.com/straczynski/stat...95030908841984

That sort of comment from jms is ridiculous on multiple levels. Firstly, people like Kevin Kutchaver and Eric Chauvin produced the composite shots and neither of those guys were connected with Foundation imaging. They were quite separate.

Creating composites shots is also very different from creating CGI. CGI is, as the name says computer generated images, and exist quite separately from film. Composite shots on the other hand is where visual FX are added to pre-existing filmed live action. Film "plates" are delivered to the composite artist who then add the desired effects to the plate. . . . The plates delivered - from the production (ie the exective producers) - to the composite artists were already telecined down to 4:3, so it was physically impossible for the artists to create wide composites on 4:3 plates.

Even IF the production wanted to deliver wide plates to the compositors they couldn't. . . Because back in the 1990's the telecine and editing equipment used for television could NOT handle wider aspect ratios. Here's a quote from Eric Chauvin who was one of the FX supervisors on the show.

"The aspect ratio of standard “4-perf” Academy aperature 35mm film is 4:3. That’s what 35mm telecine equipment in the 1990’s was engineered to transfer. And the only digital means of recording the telecine’d frames was on NTSC D1 Digital Tape, at 720x486 (non-square pixels). There was no other way to transfer and record the footage for television broadcast in the mid-1990’s. We would have had to adopt a film workflow, which would have significantly increased the cost and schedule.(Feature films transferred one frame at a time using multi-million dollar film scanners and recorded frames to high-powered SGI computers. This process was too expensive and too slow to be useful for television).

Considering that jms is also now saying things like this.

I supervised every single CGI shot in this show. I *ran* and produced this show and was there as the tech was being created. You have no idea what a show runner does.

https://twitter.com/straczynski/stat...01034561511424

and is supposed to have edited every episode of the show, then it beggars belief that he is now also saying that (A) he thought the CGI and composites where created in wide (especially as it wasn't physically possible to do it, and (B) to say with a straight face that no one told him they weren't being created in wide. . . . and to then blame Foundation Imaging of all people for this (not least because they were only on the show for the first three seasons) is outrageous. Which is a shame as I DO admire him on some levels and do enjoy his work. . . But taking credit for things he wasn't responsible for, while deflecting blame away from himself or creating blame where none should exist then directing it to others is unfortunate.