JMS now on Patreon

[Ubik]

On the one hand it surprises me JMS has not reached this goal. I feel like he should have no trouble landing investors from the U.K. and German markets if he can't get enough interest from U.S. investors. I feel those two markets recognize Babylon 5's brilliance more than most places.

I agree B5 has a higher concentrations of fans in certain territories, but I certainly don't feel like it's really a widely recognised property here in the UK. More people are likely to remember it being made fun of on SPACED than they are knowing it from having actually watched the show. Even SPACED was a niche show catering to an alternative / SF literate audience. I think it's easy to confuse 'passionate niche fandom' for a viable 'market'. I think we are still the former. That isn't to say you couldn't hard reboot it and try sell it to a new audience.

Here are two possible big obstacles that might be standing in the way.

#1 Investors are reluctant to pour money into a project that WB is possibly going to take legal action against. Yes JMS controls the feature film rights, but WB controls so much more of the property AND WB is likened to organize crime. I'm not saying they are a criminal organization. I am saying like Organized Crime they might use their influence to put all kinds of legal, production, and distribution obstacles in the way of a feature film if they are so inclined. If they wanted they could cause all kinds of unnecessary hassles that knowledgeable investors might want to avoid, especially if they feel those hassles might follow them into various future projects. It is a lot easier to make and distribute movies if the big studios aren't against what you are doing.

I think the typical narrative of painting WB as the bad guy is really tired and very JMS centric. WB has kept B5 on multiple streaming services, from Netflix, to Prime... it's not always renewed because the demand doesn't seem to be there, but also, streaming services rotate their shows. Unless JMS has really made some enemies at WB who are still around to date, I doubt they'd stand in the way. I know back when we had the big Comic Con announcement that JMS was doing to script and shop the B5 movie via Studio JMS, he said he'd give WB first refusal. I'm unsure this was ever done. It's so hard to say, as we are speculating wildly here, but I tend to roll my eyes at "WB are BAAAD" type narratives. Worth remembering that WB were keen to make more Lost Tales, but JMS declined on financial grounds. At that point, he's also creating a barrier to new content. So, JMS himself is also a barrier, as much as WB is. It's a bit like these 6 figure audio dramas!

#2 JMS himself. Remember JMS has been burned on projects in the past by more than just Warner Brothers. I am by no means a knowledgeable person when it comes to THE MEMORY OF SHADOWS affair, but things of that nature might make JMS VERY reluctant to crawl into bed with certain investors.

I think those investors are long gone, and I think TMOS was just a series of unfortunate events. Securing funding for films is really hard, and nothing is guaranteed until the cameras roll. He's going to need investors, or it just ain't gonna happen.

Yes it does seem HIGHLY far-fetched that Patreon alone could fund a feature film project, BUT every little bit helps. If JMS can get a large enough revenue stream coming in from Patreon he might be able to leverage that into investors seeing there is still enough interest in Babylon 5 that they might see big profits from their investment.

I just think it's a bit disingenuous to keep mentioning the B5 Movie, but I'm sure it'll help drum up some more Patreons! I note JMS has been careful to couch it in terms of a long term 'dream'. Me, I don't think can happen via Patreon. B5 and JMS just isn't high profile enough to pull in that kind of cash. The tweet got 5 retweets, that's how excited people are... Hmmm...

I'd love for it to be otherwise, but it's a pipe dream. I do not think this should be trotted out as a 'sign up for my Patreon' thing.

Sorry if I seem like I'm on a massive downer on this issue. Looney I LOVE your optimism (genuinely!)... but it just seems too head in the clouds. If he were directly saying "okay, B5 movie is go", Kickstarter here, go pledge... sure, I'd look at that with interest. We'd then actually get a fair assessment of it it were possible to raise the required amount. I mean, I know it was terrible, but Space Command is shooting their 2nd and 3rd movie now.

[B5-Stefan]

I am by no means a knowledgeable person when it comes to THE MEMORY OF SHADOWS affair, but things of that nature might make JMS VERY reluctant to crawl into bed with certain investors.

Yes it does seem HIGHLY far-fetched that Patreon alone could fund a feature film project, BUT every little bit helps. If JMS can get a large enough revenue stream coming in from Patreon he might be able to leverage that into investors seeing there is still enough interest in Babylon 5 that they might see big profits from their investment.

Well, the TMOS incident...

If I remember correctly, it's the 15th anniversary.

High time for efforts on an all new B5 feature!

B5-Stefan


--
"When you see someone putting on his Big Boots, you can be pretty sure that an Adventure is going to happen."
[Winnie the Pooh]

[B5-Stefan]

I know it was terrible, but Space Command is shooting their 2nd and 3rd movie now.

Ubik, SPACE COMMAND is an excellent example for what's possible in the business against all odds.

As I say: High time for efforts on an all new B5 feature!

B5-Stefan


--
Max Eilerson: "Nations rise and fall. Planets live and die.
But corporations go on and on, through good times and bad, because it's all about profit."
[Crusade: "Racing the Night"]

[B5-Stefan]

Short but nice 1y ago reddit chat on TMOS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/babylon5/comments/b7d033/memory_of_shadows_synopsis_of_babylon_5_movie/

B5-Stefan


--
Lyssa Deradi : "Did they live happily every after?"
[Babylon5, In the Beginning]

[Looney]

Looney I LOVE your optimism (genuinely!)... but it just seems too head in the clouds.

WOW!!!!! I feel like you really did not interpret my meaning very well. I feel the only "optimism" I showed was that JMS might be able to use Patreon numbers to interest investors in a film project. I did not say it was likely to happen. Patreon alone is NEVER going to fund a Babylon 5 feature film the way JMS wants to do it.

WB more likely than not would be the bad guy in any scenario JMS trys to make a feature film from a property they have a huge interest in if they are not involved. I'm not saying they definitely would be the bad guy, but if he doesn't get them on board with the project then they will likely throw up obstacles because that is how those corporations work. I too doubt there are still many people with WB whom might have personal feelings towards JMS, but all those companies care about is profits and control. If I had the feature film or television rights to do something with the Lion King property do you think Disney would just tell me good luck? And I don't think THE LOST TALES is a good example of WB wanting to do something with Babylon 5 when they reversed coarse and wanted to give him less money to continue making them. Why would you want to continue a project when you know they are going to make it more difficult each step of the way? Yes the sales of the first release might have influenced that, but I feel like JMS was smart for doing it. Continuing with less than they had to do the first one was not going to improve the product or the sales of those DVDs.

Again, I'm not saying Warner Brothers would automatically be the bad guy in this scenario. I'm say if they turn down involvement and investment in the project and JMS gets funding from other sources then, if I make up a random figure of what I feel would happen based on the power of my brain, there is an 85% chance they will become a bad guy in the scenario. If it were Disney that percentage would be 100%. BUT I feel the second best case scenario for JMS would be WB sees his ability to get investors as a plus and reverses their course. He gets them to invest with other investors and there is a REAL budget.

And in truth part of the reason Warner Brothers may have no plans for Babylon 5 is that JMS controls those feature film rights. Like I said, they are all about control and the fact that he has some part of that franchise might be a reason they have forgotten it. Not for personal reasons, but for reasons of not wanting to put the effort into reviving a property that they don't own every piece of in its entirety. More likely than not if they do ever have interest in trying to cash in on the franchise again they would likely only do so if they could buy his rights cheaply.

And I didn't mean the investors from TMOS days. It was just an example of why JMS might be a little particular about whom he gets in bed with. Yes it was a series of unfortunate events and the most unfortunate of those events is he doesn't have control over that script.

I understand feeling like he is using lollipop wishes and candy dreams to get people to give him money, but what else is he supposed to do?! I believe he truly wants this dream of a feature film to happen, so he has to keep the dream alive. The odds are not by any means in his or our favor. They haven't been since the early years just after the show ended. They might have slightly gone up since all studios really care about now is exploiting properties they already own, but it doesn't appear that is enough for Babylon 5 - see some of the above conversation.

But why does he need the money you ask? That is a good question and here is a pretty decent answer. Other than the investor reasoning I mentioned earlier, this provides an opportunity for JMS to see where he stands. Think about it. He has been in this business most of his life and every financial aspect of it as come to him from other sources. He had never seen the exact dollar amounts fandom has generated. This Patreon money comes directly to him. There is no middle management. There is no percentage of profit. There is no residual. Direct payment of funds from fans to him. I hope it inspires him and he uses that money to keep the fandom going. What I mean is I doubt he is using it to buy groceries. I'm sure he is putting it towards ideas of things he can do. AND my real point is that the revenue stream is a constant reminder of the fans. It tells him every day there are people out there who want to see what he can do so he better get to it. Does this make sense?

And I want to address the audio drama thing. I haven't really paid much attention to that conversation, but personally I assumed when those large figures were mentioned it meant that his plans involved hiring all the original cast members he could as well as things like an effects team and such. That is the audio drama I want to hear. I mean I don't know how each of the actor's pay scales work, but it still adds up despite having so few to work with.

I mean I personally don't think JMS has ever blatantly been dishonest about it. It is all speculation and dreams and I think he has pretty much told it like it is. If Sense 8 had gotten the recognition it deserved we might be having an entirely different discussion about how the pandemic delayed the release of our beloved feature film. You never know.

I don't know maybe my love for Babylon 5 has been ingrained for so long - since 1994 if you are keeping track - I don't know how to not hope for something. I think part of it is people feel like JMS is pulling some kind of scam, but I've spent countless dollars on B5 items since 1994. What problem could I possibly have with giving what money I can directly to the creator of something that has given me countless hours of entertainment and enjoyment for approaching 30 years of my life? If I am helping pay for his retirement I'm glad to do it. Yeah he doesn't need the money and I'm still glad to do it. I'm not giving it to Warner Brothers. I'm not giving it to some eBay Seller. I'm giving it directly to the person who made the thing that I love because I want to show him the support I've never really been able to directly show him before. And I'm not doing it with any expectation. If people are doing it because they really expect it will get them something he can't give just by being who he is then yes they have their heads in the clouds.


OH WHO AM I KIDDING?! I AM JUST HOLDING OUT FOR THE NUDES....

(For those of you whom do not understand that reference I know an 18 year old who can enlighten you on what a good deal of Patreon is used for.)

[Triple F]

2006 - announcing Lost Tales
Anyway, they call every so often and want to do something with B5 and asked "Do you want to do a feature film?" and I thought about it for a while and I said, "No." And here's why: A) I don't trust movies that much but B) most important, I can't see the structure of a B5 movie right now as long as long as Andreas and Rick insist on staying dead. As much as B5 was about the stories of Sheridan and Delenn and those guys, there's the Londo and G'Kar arc that was the clothes line from which I hung all that. . . [snip] . . . . So I thought about it and I came back to them and said, "Here's what I'm thinking. When we did Babylon 5, what I liked were the small little stories that we did as `B' plots and as short stories. What if we did a whole bunch of short films? Little mini-movies, each one worked around established B5 characters, not somebody else. One that's worked around Sheridan, one that's worked around Delenn, one that's worked around Lochley or Garibaldi or whoever it is, and put these things out on DVDs and sell them to networks, whatever you want to do, make them short stories. An anthology show set in the Babylon 5 universe. They said, "Okay." We already have a network that wants to carry them, by the way. We're negotiating with them now.


2008 Announcing no more Lost Tales.
So I've let everyone up here know that I'm not interested in doing any more low-budget DVDs. I'm not interested in doing any low-budget cable things or small computer games. The only thing I would be interested in doing regarding Babylon 5 from this point on is a full-featured, big-budget feature film. It's that or nothing. And if it's nothing, I'm totally cool with that because the original story stands on its own just fine. I'm not lobbying for it, I'm not asking fans to write in about it (nor should you) because such campaigns never really have much impact...that's simply the position I've taken up here.

So, after some success with Changeling and looking like he might be getting some clout as an A-list movie writer, in less than two years jms has moved from not trusting movies, to anything new with B5 has to be a big budget movie or nothing. . . and here's the kicker, if it's nothing then he's fine with that!

2014 Announcing HE's going to do a B5 movie.
Financially, I’ll never seen a dime out of Babylon 5 ever. I have no problems with that; I knew what I was signing when I go into it, but I mention it to piss them off every once in a while. One thing that I was able to withhold was the film rights. I still own the movie rights to Babylon 5. I’ve been pushing Warner’s for the last…ever since the early cretaceous period…to “Let’s do a Babylon 5 movie – a proper big budget feature film.” And they’ve always dragged their feet [because] that’s what Warner Bros. does.

It's kinda difficult commenting on the way jms's phrases things like how he'll never see a dime from B5 - or comparing himself to a starving Biafran - Becasue what follows is going to come across as "hater" talk, when it really isn't. . . . But it's things like the DVD sales he's referring to of course. The reality is Babylon 5 has netted him a few bucks over the years. Using numbers he brought up in the past a syndication script for an hour show was $14,000 (back when B5 started), first re-run would net 45% of that in residual payments, (so that's another $6,300). I'm deliberately keeping it to the initial and first re-run . . . Doesn't include his executive producer income, foreign market residuals, 2nd or third re-runs or the on-going base line residuals which he gets paid every time an episode is aired even all these years later. So based on JUST those figures (and nothing else, such as script book sales) . . . . that's, $20,300 x 92 episodes which is $1.8 MILLION. . . . . . . .

Anyway, this isn't about speculating on what jms does or doesn't get paid. . . But I'm using that as an example of how fans are given the perception of a situation, and how it effects what they later believe to be true. . . For example, Looney, you said this.

And I don't think THE LOST TALES is a good example of WB wanting to do something with Babylon 5 when they reversed coarse and wanted to give him less money to continue making them.

That's not what happened. . . When announcing he's walking away from the Lost Tales jms said that WB wanted to do more, and MORE money was mentioned. 5 million was mentioned, he still considered it low budget, even though it was two and a half times more than the 2 million which he said he got for the budget of the first one. . . . . But you have a vague memory that WB wanted to pay LESS - because that's the role they play, the bad guys, and jms is the manipulated (poor) artist.

Anyway. I started writing this with the idea of showing a long pattern of behaviour and how it does (in my mind at least) amount to basically trying to manipulate the perceptions and opinions of fans. But now it feels like it would require more effort than I think it deserves. But take that movie thing as an example. . . He didn't trust movies, didn't want to do one, and in a few short years it's WB who doesn't want to do one. . . . I guess the bottom line is jms dragged his feet (for whatever reason), he's missed the boat. . . B5 was never a hugely popular show, but it was at least known for a while. . . . I've had it explained to me that of course there's no one at WB who hates B5, jms or even the PTEN shows. . . Everyone has moved on. . . . What B5 suffers from is far more mundane - for years there's been no one left within WB to champion it.

Think about it. Once upon a time, someone (singular or plural) at WB is periodically chasing jms to do stuff with B5. . . and at some point after he walks away from the Lost Tales saying big budget movie or nothing, and after he later tried to acquire the tv rights, he starts saying there's someone at WB who has always had it in for him/the show/PTEN products . . . .What's changed? . . . . . . What jms tells fans is what's changed.

[Jan]

[
What's changed? . . . . . . What jms tells fans is what's changed.

I guess most of us understand that time and emotions and artistic choices can change over time. Why don't you?

[Jan]

What problem could I possibly have with giving what money I can directly to the creator of something that has given me countless hours of entertainment and enjoyment for approaching 30 years of my life? If I am helping pay for his retirement I'm glad to do it. Yeah he doesn't need the money and I'm still glad to do it. I'm not giving it to Warner Brothers. I'm not giving it to some eBay Seller. I'm giving it directly to the person who made the thing that I love because I want to show him the support I've never really been able to directly show him before. And I'm not doing it with any expectation.

From the response we saw when JMS asked the Patrons about sharing the videos after a period of exclusivity, I think that sentiment is fairly widespread among us.

OH WHO AM I KIDDING?! I AM JUST HOLDING OUT FOR THE NUDES....

(For those of you whom do not understand that reference I know an 18 year old who can enlighten you on what a good deal of Patreon is used for.)

I can't tell you how glad I am that you explained that!!

[Ubik]

Looney, my apologies if I took some of what you said too literally. Totally agree with your follow up post, and as long as you have grounded expectations of what you're getting, I see no issues. The comment about nudes made me LOL.

I guess, like all fans, I'd love to see a B5 movie too! In the end, it's fun to kick this stuff around and debate it. I'm sure we'll be revisiting all this in a year or two, will be interesting to see what comes out of the Patreon. This kind of stuff is really all we have left in terms of new B5 news! I'll hold out hope for those audio dramas, although there's nothing to say those would be at all B5 related. I suppose my mind always goes back to the touted Crusade audio drama to go with the final volume of the WTHH books.

[JesseW]

Welp, I'm signed up! The $30 tier is the best I can do for now. For me, it boils down to this: I love Babylon 5, and I love Sense8, and I love JMS. I'm here to support him, and to help him do his thing. We may get a B5 movie, we may not. This whole thing might go somewhere, or it might crash and burn! From what JMS has said over the years, that's just how Hollywood works. But it sure is fun to be a part of something (albeit a small one) JMS is doing.

[Ubik]

Welp, I'm signed up! The $30 tier is the best I can do for now. For me, it boils down to this: I love Babylon 5, and I love Sense8, and I love JMS. I'm here to support him, and to help him do his thing. We may get a B5 movie, we may not. This whole thing might go somewhere, or it might crash and burn! From what JMS has said over the years, that's just how Hollywood works. But it sure is fun to be a part of something (albeit a small one) JMS is doing.

Ideal take really. We all have different perspectives, some of us more skeptical than others! Like I said, always fun to just toss around different takes. There are definitely various extremities of JMS lovers here, and I like that we just about manage to co-exist. We all love B5, that's always gonna be a constant. I don't mind a bit of lively debate.

I do sometimes worry that Jan would take a bullet for JMS though. I jest... I jest... we have our little spats, but it keeps the place alive, right?

[JesseW]

Ideal take really. We all have different perspectives, some of us more skeptical than others! Like I said, always fun to just toss around different takes. There are definitely various extremities of JMS lovers here, and I like that we just about manage to co-exist. We all like B5, that's always gonna be a constant.

Yes, we do! I don't stop by here often, but when I do I always feel comfortable expressing my take on a subject without being ridiculed or trolled. That's what I love about this forum. It feels like home, and we're all a family.

[Jan]

I do sometimes worry that Jan would take a bullet for JMS though. I jest... I jest... we have our little spats, but it keeps the place alive, right?

If there were a table in here I'd be chasing you around it with a cast iron frying pan! I've been accused of being in love with JMS (um...not!), being in lust with JMS (Ewwww!) and even *being* JMS (because we look so much alike, I'm sure!). But that's a new one. Given how I react at the sight of a gun, the only way I could/would take a bullet for him is if he beat me to the ground and I fainted on top of him!

Good to see you, JesseW. Are you going to ask a question for the latest video?

[B5-Stefan]

OH WHO AM I KIDDING?! I AM JUST HOLDING OUT FOR THE NUDES....

Ah yes. I know what you're deeply expecting.



B5-Stefan


--
Dukhat: "I'm not saying anything. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now."
[Babylon5, In the Beginning]

[nottenst]

Just signed up. I may up my tier, but I'll see how it goes.