amazing spider-man: sins past & in general

[Slither]

I keep hearing this is a good story.

Ok, sell me on it.

What about it makes it a good story?

[Slither]

Still waiting....

[Jan]

Originally posted by Slither
I keep hearing this is a good story.

Ok, sell me on it.

What about it makes it a good story?

Sorry, Slither. I'd originally read your post at work and forgot to come back to it.

Sell you on it? I'm not sure I can because your focus is on what happened between Norman Osborne and Gwen. That's *not* what the story is about at all. The consequences of it, ie. the children is. But, for me, the important part is Peter's relationship with MJ.

Peter didn't just find out about what Gwen did, he found out that MJ had been keeping a secret from him for many years. She couldn't have helped but know that Peter would have wanted to know that there was something left of Gwen still around, no matter how it got there. MJ's there for him right now, even knowing that his thoughts can't help but be full of Gwen. We're shown that consciously he loves her dearly but subconsciously (unconsciously? not sure) he's still got deep feelings for Gwen. Talk about competition that can't be fought!

We also learn something I'm not sure I'd've known about Peter in seeing his reaction to the kid's problem. They don't even know they have a problem but he risks everything to tell them. How many people would react that way to people who've done nothing but try to kill them?

Also, the artwork is stunning. You feel for them every bit as much as if it were being acted out in front of you.

Don't know if that's what you were looking for. Does it help?

Jan

[manwithnoname]

"Sell you on it? I'm not sure I can because your focus is on what happened between Norman Osborne and Gwen. That's *not* what the story is about at all. The consequences of it, ie. the children is. But, for me, the important part is Peter's relationship with MJ."
It's obvious Slither doesn't like the story. JMS has stated on how promiscuous Peter has been throughout the years. I agree because the proof is in the comic pages. So, one (Slither) could say Peter is a bigger slut than Gwen.
I'm pretty sure, Jan, that whatever anybody has to say Slither will not ever like this story. That's okay, though. Wolverine and Marvel Knights Spider-Man are huge sellers right now, and many people enjoy those stories. I, for one, don't feel a connection with any Mark Millar writing. I don't like his writing for Wolverine; I feel he's writing an iconic Wolverine rather than Greg Rucka's Wolverine. Rucka, I feel focused on the human aspect of Wolverine. Millar's Spider-Man is pure action film fluff; I just feel it's lacking in depth, shocking for shocking sake.
Re: Avengers Disassembled
I love what Bendis is doing with the Avengers. This is totally withing the Stan Lee tradition. Great stories!!

[Jan]

Originally posted by manwithnoname
I'm pretty sure, Jan, that whatever anybody has to say Slither will not ever like this story. That's okay, though.

I'm sure you're right. And it's great that everybody has different tastes, too. Heck, as big a fan of JMS's work as I am, there've been a few things he's written that simply left me cold.

I'm not reading any comics other than JMS's and Samm Barnes' at this point. The cost per page of story is a little daunting for me. Expecially since JMS keeps adding titles! My comic shop guy loves him and tells me he's got at least 15 people who subscribe to whatever JMS writes.

Jan

[jondani]

I've always considered myself a Spider expert. I love Gwen. I started reading right after she died, and those Ross Andru books were always my favorites. followed closely by Romita JR. Now, though,... I avoided the threads because I don't read monthly comics (except for Supreme Power), I buy all the trades and hardcovers... Gwen had sex with Norman. But never with Peter. That sure is a sad statement of their relationship. I agree, that I don't think it made Norman out to be any more of a monster than he already was. It's certainly less traumatic than thinking that Norman just killed poor Gwen to torture Peter... Man, J. Michael did his job here. I don't even know what to say. I had chills and held my breath while reading the story and I had the benefit of not having to wait between issues. I do think he's nailed these characters and for that I'm very happy. I hope Sarah stays around a while, too. It'd be nice to see Pete play the dad. Especially since Norman stole his real daughter as well. I quit reading comics during the Spider-clone story because it was just so poorly done. I can't even think straight, here. Let me just say that was the most, touching's not the right word 'cause it sure knocked me for a loop, story I have ever read! J. Michael, I hope you never get bored with the Spider!

Mike

[Jan]

Originally posted by jondani
J. Michael, I hope you never get bored with the Spider!

Hi, Mike!

You'll probably be happy to hear that JMS posted recently that he's renewed his contract for an additional two years.

Jan

[jondani]

Hi, Jan, Two more years. Thanks. More to blather, I am hurt that Gwen shared herself with Norman, I'm not angry at her (or JMS) , I LOVED Peter's outburst, and the fact that I felt like I could see the bonds between Pete and MJ strengthening. That was a great story!

Mike

[Garibaldi's Hair]

Gwen had sex with Norman. But never with Peter. That sure is a sad statement of their relationship.

Of which relationship? For me, this reinforces the strength of Peter and Gwen's relationship and exposes Norman and Gwen's for what it was.

Peter and Gwen didn't need to have sex in order to have a great relationship, whereas Norman and Gwen didn't really have anything else.

And I hardly think that a single sexual encounter at a vulnerable time constitutes Gwen being turned into a "trollop".

But, as someone whose sexual partners can be counted on one finger, what do I know.

[naloth]

Odd story, Bad Idea

I don't have a the strong emotions on it that I had for the Clone Saga mess (which actually caused me to leave the series until it was finally sorted out); however, I consider it a poor story.

The old Norman shifted between being an obsessive Spider-man foe and a businessman. Which would have bedded Gwen then hidden the fact? Neither makes sense. It's really only the "new" Norman which is much different from any prior incarnation (another minor peeve) that can be cast in the role that JMS wants.

Gwen was a moral girl that presumably didn't make a habit of sleeping around. It's extremely out of character for her to cheat (without remorse) on her boyfriend.

It's also problematic that this didn't come to light with all the Stacy / Osborn storylines over the years. There's no hint and it requires more than a little suspension of disbelief that it's never come up. It's undoubtly a retcon, and unlike those that connect events which were there to begin with there's no prior hints and plenty of reasons why shouldn't be possible.

As a fan of the original series, I'm a little confused when it could have taken place. Gwen wasn't out of her friends and family's sight for months. The one extensive trip was with to go off with her Uncle and Peter visits midway (looks through window not actually meeting her but there's no big belly on that panel).

As a hoax it's interesting. As a retelling of the past, it's a long stretch that even Mr. Fantastic wouldn't attempt.

[Jan]

Hi, Naloth, and welcome!

I guess when it comes to comics I just can't accept that there's any kind of 'canon' at all. That may be because I was away from comics for so many years but it's always seemed to me that there was no requirement for previous events to the held to in current stories-especially considering how many titles there are.

I just enjoyed the story for what it was without worrying about continuity or canonicity.

Jan

[naloth]

Hi, Naloth, and welcome!

I guess when it comes to comics I just can't accept that there's any kind of 'canon' at all. That may be because I was away from comics for so many years but it's always seemed to me that there was no requirement for previous events to the held to in current stories-especially considering how many titles there are.

I just enjoyed the story for what it was without worrying about continuity or canonicity.

It seems to be a common view lately. I guess I prefer solid characterization first, entertainment second, and being true to the history third.

A story about tracking down and killing villians might be entertaining, but it isn't something I would consider appropriate (in character) for Spider-man like it would be for the Punisher. It's hard to enjoy the story for the story if the cast isn't behaving appropriately. Entertainment often follows when simply from reading about our characters do what they should be doing. 'Nuff said?

History is important simply to connect the dots. If the last time Doc Ock was left to die in his underground flooding complex, I'ld expect a "how he got from there to here" story. If the Kangaroo (who's an insignicant long dead villian) popped up, I'ld expect much better reason.

The new Norman Osborn isn't the same Norman that died. First, he's like the (original) Hobgoblin instead: a mastermind rather than a star in events. Second, all the subsequent stories he's been in are horribly convoluted. Neither make for good storytelling.

Captain Stacy and Gwen's deaths were important events in both overall history and in Spider-man's characterization. The first clone story was an entertaining "you cannot go home again" story.

Sin's Past certainly didn't add to Gwen's death. It seems to have ridden the coattails of those stories without adding to them. So did Sins Past give us?
1) The children aren't that interesting. The son is rather one-dimensional. Sarah seems interesting, though post Sins Remembered (bad story) they have some salvage work to do.
2) It didn't change Spider-man characterization in any particular way.
3) I had the appropriate "what the?" "could it have happened?" "let me consider this" reactions. Much like the Sixth Sense, it was a good shocker. Unfortunately when I went back and read it in the context of the storyline it's set around (Capt Stacy's death to Gwen's death) it's much *less* entertaining.

Taking the story for what it is, I'ld stand by my original comment: interesting as a hoax, bad idea for the mythology.

I really enjoy the new Supreme Power. I noticed it about issue 4 and scrambled to get all the prior ones. While completely different from the prior Squadron Supreme it doesn't pretend to be the prior Squadron Supreme. The characterizations are new and the story is still self-consistant. The character progressions have been somewhat reasonable - no major leaps of inconsistancy.

OTOH, I didn't particularly like the Supreme Power: Nighthawk. While somewhat entertaining it didn't accomplish much. There's very little character development, a lot of senseless cursing and killing, and apparently nothing that will carry back to the main title... For a while I thought they were leading up to giving him a baby to care for (a ward ala Batman and Robin).

[BoyWithTheBlues]

I finally got around to reading Sins Past, and I must say it is absolutely atrocious.

I'm not criticizing the rewriting or revising of spider-man's mythology; no, I am, of course, approaching it as a particular story concerning spider-man/peter parker. as a story, all of the characters come across as dubious, insincere, dim, and ultimately flat.

However, it is important to recognize that JMS has one thrilling imagination, which is why Sins Past is a devastatingly crushing let-down. It is, like some others have said, contrived.

I have never cared much for Gwen Stacy - this story didn't change that fact. It's odd though, when I think about it. She is the victim of succumbing to impulsive passion and not having a prophylactic around, and having children out of wedlock. yet, somehow she finds time to tell-all to Mary Jane, but doesn't bother doing the same with her "lover," Peter Parker? She has an accelerated birthrate, abandons Europe and consequently her children, pursues Peter Parker, and gets killed. I should feel a great swell of pity in my heart and stomach for her, but don't. I felt detached reading this.

I suppose had JMS really dove in to the emotional complexities and internal struggles of all involved in the libidinous conquest of the mad Norman the story would have been vastly improved. I think these things should have been explored more thoroughly. As it stands, the story (in my mind) is simply too convoluted.

Regrettably, I am forced to count myself among the number of outraged fans who have lampooned Sins Past.

Feel free to disagree (it really isn't that big of a deal; we're all here talking about comics, especially JMS' work, and enjoy doing it), but this is easily the sloppiest and most thoughtless thing JMS has ever written.

Don't hit me.

[Jan]

I have never cared much for Gwen Stacy - this story didn't change that fact.

As JMS said recently, all Gwen ever did before was flounce. She was a great flouncer but that's all there was to the character.

I suppose had JMS really dove in to the emotional complexities and internal struggles of all involved in the libidinous conquest of the mad Norman the story would have been vastly improved. I think these things should have been explored more thoroughly.

The only quibble I have with this is to ask..."How?" When the only source of information we have is MJ, *and* MJ is justifiably hyper-aware of the lingering feelings her husband still has for Gwen? How can you explore Gwen's emotional complexities? I think JMS did a good job exploring Peter and MJ's feelings. In fact, I still think that Peter's allowing himself to still feel as he does about Gwen is going to cause trouble at some point. Yes, he loves MJ but he's still partly in love with Gwen.

Welcome aboard, BoyWithTheBlues!

Jan

[Garibaldi's Hair]

How can JMS dive into the emotional complexities of Gwen's "relationship" with Norman, when the whole thing is being viewed from the point of view of Peter and MJ who simply could not have known any of that stuff?

The only ways that could have been dealt with would have been if ...

(a) Gwen had turned up alive after all, and been involved in the story, or
(b) the story was being told first hand at the time it happened

I don't have a problem with people not liking the story, personally I liked it a lot, because that is subjective. Everyone is entitled to like something or not. I have just always taken issues with those who use the fact that they didn't like the story as the basis for claiming that it undermines continuity and destroys Gwen as a character.

Regrettably, I am forced to count myself among the number of outraged fans who have lampooned Sins Past.

And there you go ... fine, you don't like the story. There are some of JMS's Spider-Man stories that I haven't liked, and thought could have been done better if ... etc. etc. But that doesn't give me the right to be outraged, and pour scorn on his head.

I can either acknowledge that I may not like everything he ever writes and move on to the next story, or I can choose to stop reading because I am not enjoying it anymore.