JMS-Spidey Creative Team FLAYME WAR~!

[lotjx]

As someone who just saw this a few days ago, let me say that I quit Marvel, not Spidey, Marvel over JMS leaving and the crappy way they handled Civil War and World War Hulk. I also am with Garibaldi, married Peter was someone who grew up with the character could relate to. He was also growing up to be a teacher and not the guy JJJ chews out in every issue for bad photos that JJJ buys at the end anyway. It was one of the few comic book characters that evolved. Then they wanted to do this stupid reboot which does not shock me that has lead to lower sales.

It doesn't surprise me that Joe Quesada or whoever he told to yell out JMS get upset. All of this was his idea when it became clear Sony didn't want to deal with Raimi anymore. Slott is a crap writer and probably the worst example of a comic book writer out. When people complained about Brand New Day, he said they should stop leaving in their parents' basements. Classy. I do not know what Waid said, but considering Joe Q fired him from FF then had to eat crow to get him back after Waid used the internet to get his job back, I hope he came on JMS' side or it would be a bit hypocritical.

At the end of the day, comics are so screwed up with reboots and trying to do one giant event after another, its no longer fun. I wish they would go back to simpler stories ie one where not everything is connected. JMS like Kevin Smith is now a lightening rod for comics where either love or hate his work, little or no in between. While I thought he did a great job with ASM, his DC has been a disappointment minus Superman: Earth One.

[Jan]

Being in the UK, my purchases probably don't count in this argument...

I'm not 100% certain but I think all of the charts are estimates based mostly on figures from one or more distributors. Don't know if they include non-USian sales or not.

Ripping that relationship out of the book in such a way that it never existed, just as an excuse to reboot things with a single Peter Parker, was an uncrossable line for me.

For me also, though if it hadn't been so badly done I might have stuck with it for a little while and given it a try. The whole Mephisto deal was the deal-breaker for me.

Jan

[Garibaldi's Hair]

Being in the UK, my purchases probably don't count in this argument, so I have no intention of entering into it, however I am one of those who stopped reading ASM at the time JMS stopped writing it and (like most things in life) it isn't as simple as saying that that was THE reason ... although I am sure it played a part as the reason I started reading in the first place was because JMS had started writing it.

As a happily married man myself, I actually found myself feeling a strong affinity with the married Peter Parker that I had never felt with any other comic character (in spite of my superpowers being very different) and, for me, a big part of ASM was about Peter and MJ and what being Spider-Man gave/took away from that relationship.

Ripping that relationship out of the book in such a way that it never existed, just as an excuse to reboot things with a single Peter Parker, was an uncrossable line for me.

[Triple F]

The reason ASM was so high and there's all those tie ins is "Spider Island" was highly hyped as an "event" like a Civil War or Infinite Crisis or whatnot. So they really should be compared to other event sales figures more than an average issue of the run.

Are those one offs or short run specials like a test bed introducing new character/story ideas – a bit like a tv pilot movie that might become a series. Digital releases for stuff like that – or lumping them together in a single issue - would seem to be the more cost effective way of doing something like that, if that was the case. But then again, the #1 issue badge has always the potential to tweak a collectors instinct I suppose.

[Jan]

Nah...JMS isn't over here so no way it's going very far. The gazillion new registrations over here are spammers, not haters.

Jan

[Joe Nazzaro]

So you guys are now going to hash this over here instead? Do you realize the irony of that situation?

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Not looking for an argument, and I haven’t read a comic in decades. But does that really hold water. I could be well wrong in this assumption, but doesn't each publication/spin-off or whatever havedifferent stories involving different characters. So therefore, although there will be plenty of fans who will read/purchase all of them, there will be others who prefer one over another and purchase accordingly.

I see what your saying that even when jms was working on the ASM there was still technically 3 or so Spiderman related publications in existence, and ASM now only has two issues per month. Just took a quick squint at what was for sale on August this year (month picked at random).

Amazing Spiderman #667
Amazing Spiderman #668
Spider Island Cloak & Dagger #1
Spider Island Deadly Foes #1
Spider Island Amazing Spider Girl #1
Spider Island Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #1
Amazing Spiderman Infested #1
Spiderman Emergence Evil Jackal & Hobgoblin #1
Spiderman # 7

Bloody hell, 9 publications! And according to the site holding the sales figures (which I believe are estimates) it has the two Amazing Spiderman issues ranked as 6th and 9th in the sales charts.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my post but 9+ titles a month for spider-man is not a new thing. It's been that way since the 90s and was also that way during JMS' run. As a Spider-Man collector, it's really hard to keep up, and it upsets me every time I walk into a comic shop. Those titles I listed during JMS' tenure were the ongoing ones so I was using them as an example to "match up" with the ASM publication schedule, but there were Spider-Man: Civil War one shots, mini-series, Spider-Man Family, Spider-Girl, etc. coming out each month as well. Imagine trying to follow X-men or Batman each month though, each of those boast around 15 titles each.

The reason ASM was so high and there's all those tie ins is "Spider Island" was highly hyped as an "event" like a Civil War or Infinite Crisis or whatnot. So they really should be compared to other event sales figures more than an average issue of the run.

[Triple F]

I don't agree on the sales. . . . . . . ASM is now coming out twice monthly instead of 3x, for one. But even so, back when JMS was on ASM, there was also: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and Marvel Knights Spider-Man, which were relaunched in various incarnations, effectively making 3 spider-titles a month. With civil war crossover and the other and the like, fans were pretty much forced to buy all three titles.

Not looking for an argument, and I havenÆt read a comic in decades. But does that really hold water. I could be well wrong in this assumption, but doesn't each publication/spin-off or whatever havedifferent stories involving different characters. So therefore, although there will be plenty of fans who will read/purchase all of them, there will be others who prefer one over another and purchase accordingly.

I see what your saying that even when jms was working on the ASM there was still technically 3 or so Spiderman related publications in existence, and ASM now only has two issues per month. Just took a quick squint at what was for sale on August this year (month picked at random).

Amazing Spiderman #667
Amazing Spiderman #668
Spider Island Cloak & Dagger #1
Spider Island Deadly Foes #1
Spider Island Amazing Spider Girl #1
Spider Island Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #1
Amazing Spiderman Infested #1
Spiderman Emergence Evil Jackal & Hobgoblin #1
Spiderman # 7

Bloody hell, 9 publications! And according to the site holding the sales figures (which I believe are estimates) it has the two Amazing Spiderman issues ranked as 6th and 9th in the sales charts.

I found the arguments over on facebook (and elsewhere) kinda interesting, but what really came across is that some folks do feel strongly about comics and those who work on them.

[Jan]

Okay, I'm not reading any Spidey but you say Peter's girlfriend is a 'Mary Sue'? By definition, a 'Mary Sue' character is an avatar of the writer so who's channelling themselves?

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

JMS posted an extremly passive-aggressive message, using a graph which (as was later pointed out and elaborated on) was based on erroneous information, to insinuate that he's JUST SO AWESOME that sales on Spidey plummeted dramatically once he was no longer "gracing" the book with his presence.

Then when he got called on it, he threw a pity party for himself.

Spidey's sales are just fine, but if they've dropped at all, I think it's largely because they're publishing the book THREE times a month, rather than everyone just DYING for more JMS written Spider-Man.

He's not God's gift to comic writing. Frankly, he needs to take a loooooong break from the medium, like I thought he promised.

I don't agree on the sales. I've followed this pretty closely, and actually just because of length of time of following it closely, I would probably consider myself more of a Spider-Man fan than a JMS fan. ASM is now coming out twice monthly instead of 3x, for one. But even so, back when JMS was on ASM, there was also: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and Marvel Knights Spider-Man, which were relaunched in various incarnations, effectively making 3 spider-titles a month. With civil war crossover and the other and the like, fans were pretty much forced to buy all three titles.

I posted this on the facebook thread that got closed down. I think the spider-sales are due mostly to 3 things:
1. The economy.
2. Single Peter just leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, and they keep forcing his new girlfriend who is a complete Mary Sue.
3. There was a contingent of loyal JMS fans who stopped reading. He does have pull with his name.

The current team's stories go back and forth in quality, some of the art feels pretty rushed because of your aforementioned deadlines. The writer is really strong on his continuity, cleaning up continuity and bringing back obscure things in a cool manner. He's light on characterization. On average, the book's been fun enough that I don't really blame him for the drop in sales. The three above make a lot more sense.

As far as JMS and comic writing: I think the only problems really occur when he's stretched way too thin. And the monthly forced deadline on several books at the same time plus several movies (which is where he's making his real money, so he has to prioritize. I doubt comics pay much at all) don't really play to his career. This is just in my opinion, don't talk to the man personally (though if he wants to, I'll come hang out. just throwing that out there). I think his current graphic novel format where he takes his time, crafts a story and puts it out is going to do wonders for his comic quality. Earth One is excellent, and I think the 2nd volume will be as well.

[Jan]

He's on a break from monthlies. He never said anything about not writing minis or full OGNs and in fact, he's posted that now that Superman: Earth One Volume 2 is completed, he's going to start work soon on 'Samaritan X'

And just to be perfectly clear, we are *not* going to bring the argument over here. Not gonna happen.

Jan

[Karachi Vyce]

JMS posted a graph showing sales of Spider-Man being down since he left the title.

JMS posted an extremly passive-aggressive message, using a graph which (as was later pointed out and elaborated on) was based on erroneous information, to insinuate that he's JUST SO AWESOME that sales on Spidey plummeted dramatically once he was no longer "gracing" the book with his presence.

Then when he got called on it, he threw a pity party for himself.

Spidey's sales are just fine, but if they've dropped at all, I think it's largely because they're publishing the book THREE times a month, rather than everyone just DYING for more JMS written Spider-Man.

He's not God's gift to comic writing. Frankly, he needs to take a loooooong break from the medium, like I thought he promised.

[Jan]

Yeah, saw the whole thing. Mountain, meet molehill.

For those not knowing what we're talking about:

-JMS posted a graph showing sales of Spider-Man being down since he left the title.

- The current editor at Marvel got upset and posted a pretty long and heated defense of his team.

- JMS posted back fairly heatedly himself, mostly telling him that he'd read way too much into it. The editor replied again.

- Mark Waid chimed in.

- Various small-time websites started following it blow-by-blow.

- Entirely too many comics-readers thought they were cute by repeating "just sayin''" ad nauseum (see above)

- Toward the end, a graph was posted with purported to be more accurate than the original. Not quite as dramatic but not dissimilar to the original.

- JMS deleted the entire 150+ post thread. Then had to keep repeating that the subject was closed when various folks wouldn't let it lie.

- Then conversation turned to other matters ranging from photographing atomic explosions to B5 to the new Captain Power DVD release.

ETA: Mostly. Looks like Mr. Wacker still couldn't let it go and got a post deleted. And Dan Slott posted that the original chart poster is a wacko saying mean things on his page. And JMS said that's just fine as long as they stay in their own back yards and don't cross any legal boundaries.

Jan

[Triple F]

Yup.

I tried posting another graph there myself showing comparative sales using the same source as the original graph jms pointed to and discovered that at some point I’ve been blocked from posting on his facebook page. Which is fair enough, I suppose, given what I did with the B5Scrolls site – it’s the only reason I can imagine for him doing it as I’ve only posted a couple of times there, and never flamed or trolled.

http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb358/Triple-F/?action=view&current=Chart.gif

It is kinda funny though, given his declared stance on free speech, informed opinion, censorship, etc. etc. . . . . . . just sayin (sorry couldn't resist that)

[JoeD80]

sure do. why bring it up here?