Wonder Woman #600 (SPOILERS)

[DeltaBadhand]

Just finished reading the Times story and headed over here to post it. Argh! Beat me to it again Jan!

But, yeah, I can't wait to watch a certain segment of comics fandom loose thir collective fudge over this...

So you find it a source of joy that folks who have loved a character their entire lives are upset?

I can see where somebody might not care for him saying that Diana was overloaded with supporting characters except that's what he's said about pretty much every title he's ever taken over. And that's exactly why I dropped Gail Simone's work on the title: I couldn't figure out what was going on.

Jan

Let's count the number of regular supporting cast members under Gail Simone:
1. Hippylyta
2. Etta Candy
3. Nemisis
4. Artimis (even though she wasn't in very many issues)
5. Gorilla Knights
6. Achilles (again not always around and was recently introduced)

Now, how is that hard to follow?

And yet I don't think many have even read the preview or there'd surely be something about the preview title, wouldn't there?

And then genre fans are outraged because they have such a lousy reputation.

Jan

Is this disparaging generalization of the folks who actually buy comics necessary?


About #600:
I disliked the JMS story becuase it is the retread of the same plot lines every single creater has gone through since 1985. I sincerely beleive DC hands folks a Wonder-Woman-plot-checklist:

1. Take away powers and slowly return them
2. Kill her mom and bring her back eventually
3. Kill as many Amazons as possibly and detroy the island
4. Make her forget who she is. (Gail Simone did this in a 4 parter in the past 2 years)
5. Help her find herself so the fans can jump on if they are new (But please don't try and make what she finds consistent to the last run)
6. Change her costume and appearance. (Simone changed the outfit in the same 4 parter, Simonson cut her hair 4 years back)
7. Throw away the supporting cast and replace the with very similar characters with different names

As much as I hate the costume change and see no value in it (Google Poochie and The Simpsons for my full opinion) this retreading of plots and the lost oppurtunity to grow and build the titles mytholody on Simon and Rucka's work really drives me nuts. If you reset constantly, then you drive away any new readers that came along with the reset and you just continue to alienate the die hards who want this book to just get on with it and tell good stories.

Love JMS in other genres. Couldn't love "Changeling" any more! But this approach (with out without the costume)? Pure garbage.

[Jan]

Hi, DeltaBadhand, and welcome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

So you find it a source of joy that folks who have loved a character their entire lives are upset?

While I can't speak for Frulad, I think that what he was referring to was the costume change. And you have to admit there's been quite a stir.

Let's count the number of regular supporting cast members under Gail Simone:
1. Hippylyta
2. Etta Candy
3. Nemisis
4. Artimis (even though she wasn't in very many issues)
5. Gorilla Knights
6. Achilles (again not always around and was recently introduced)

Now, how is that hard to follow?

In a word, yes. To explain, I'd understood that WW was starting a brand new run under Gail Simone and when I picked it up I was greeted with what seemed to be a continuation of a previous story where WW/Diana had killed somebody and given up her position. I didn't know who she'd killed, why she'd killed him/her/it and there was no explanation given. I had no idea who it was that had taken her place. It didn't take me long to drop it. I might not have if there'd been any thought given to the fact that new readers might be joining that didn't have the background knowledge of what had gone before.

Is this disparaging generalization of the folks who actually buy comics necessary?

The comment was actually that it seemed that the upset folks *hadn't* read the preview at all. A fair percentage sound off and mention that they haven't bought WW and wouldn't be buying it.

About #600:
I disliked the JMS story becuase it is the retread of the same plot lines every single creater has gone through since 1985. I sincerely beleive DC hands folks a Wonder-Woman-plot-checklist:

1. Take away powers and slowly return them
2. Kill her mom and bring her back eventually
3. Kill as many Amazons as possibly and detroy the island
4. Make her forget who she is. (Gail Simone did this in a 4 parter in the past 2 years)
5. Help her find herself so the fans can jump on if they are new (But please don't try and make what she finds consistent to the last run)
6. Change her costume and appearance. (Simone changed the outfit in the same 4 parter, Simonson cut her hair 4 years back)
7. Throw away the supporting cast and replace the with very similar characters with different names

I don't know what other writers have done but I've seen JMS take over characters before and it seems pretty standard for him to leave the supporting cast aside for a while and concentrate entirely on the main character. I like that a lot because it makes it much easier for me to jump in.

As much as I hate the costume change and see no value in it (Google Poochie and The Simpsons for my full opinion) this retreading of plots and the lost oppurtunity to grow and build the titles mytholody on Simon and Rucka's work really drives me nuts. If you reset constantly, then you drive away any new readers that came along with the reset and you just continue to alienate the die hards who want this book to just get on with it and tell good stories.

Sorry, the Simpsons set my teeth on edge so I won't be googling your suggestion. And while I understand what you're saying, I think we should trust JMS to retain the core of the character. He respects WW/Diana and I think he'll be a good caretaker of that part of the DCU.

Love JMS in other genres. Couldn't love "Changeling" any more! But this approach (with out without the costume)? Pure garbage.

As I've said, there are some details about the new costume I'm not sure of but I *love* that he addressed the 'wardrobe issue' right off the bat. I have yet to see any reason why WW had to wear a bathing suit that amounted to anything more than 'that's how it's always been'. Yeah, once the timelines merge again it may go back somewhat but I dearly hope that it won't have the star-spangled panty!

I'd love to hear if and why you think the old costume worked, though.

Jan

[DeltaBadhand]

It's not a bathing suit! Never was. Anyone who's read the title over the past 10 years would get that just through dialog let alone the Amazon context.

And the guy she killed, that you didn't know about. DC had her kill someone in a company wide cross over in someone else's book. So that criticism is unfounded.

I have LOVED this book since I was a child in the 1970s and folks that don't get it and don't seem to want to get it keep ruining it. It's terribly saddening to see my childhood hero dissapear and replaced by Wonder Wolverine or Generic Woman.

I'm in for 3 issues and if I am not seeing my WW in the book, I will stop buying the book for the first time since issue #204. I sure hope I am not driven away 400 issues later.

[Jan]

Look, I admit that until I picked it up again, I hadn't read a single issue of Wonder Woman since the Mod Makeover in the 60s. But while I understand about her bracelets, tiara and lasso, I don't see what other parts of the original outfit make it anything but a bathing suit with elements of the US flag?

And why is her outfit so important? Me, I agree with JMS that the former outfit simply wasn't good for fighting in. One kick at the wrong angle and she'd be wearing a thong. One punch that landed wrong and she'd be distracting the enemy by flashing him full frontal nudity.

Why is my criticism unfounded when Gail chose to continue a storyline that no new reader could possibly have followed? After the book hadn't been published for some time (as I recall)?

I'm sorry that you don't like what seems to be going on but I have a feeling that JMS will do some great things with this character. He *respects* the characters he writes and he's proved that with Spidey and Silver Surfer and Doc Strange and others. Yeah, he may shake things up but that's to explore deeper into what makes those characters special.

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Well, a big issue here that people aren't remembering is that there aren't that many people reading wonder woman. JMS is going to bring a lot of new readership (myself included) and this is a good way to really get a new reader to see who Diana and Wonder Woman is.

I tried to read the Gail Simone part of #600 and I didn't get it. Yes, it was the end of an arc and storyline...but I read the end of the New Krypton in Superman #700 and I understood what was going on. And that's kinda the difference of what's happened to Wonder Woman over the years. I don't know what makes her definitive, I asked on wonder woman forums and people kinda shrugged about it. I think the Lynda Carter tv show is more defining of her than the comic book.

Gotta at least give it a couple of issues before really making a decision of whether it's a crap approach or not. We got 8 pages so far.

[Garibaldi's Hair]

So you find it a source of joy that folks who have loved a character their entire lives are upset?

Let's count the number of regular supporting cast members under Gail Simone:
1. Hippylyta
2. Etta Candy
3. Nemisis
4. Artimis (even though she wasn't in very many issues)
5. Gorilla Knights
6. Achilles (again not always around and was recently introduced)

Now, how is that hard to follow?

Is this disparaging generalization of the folks who actually buy comics necessary?


About #600:
I disliked the JMS story becuase it is the retread of the same plot lines every single creater has gone through since 1985. I sincerely beleive DC hands folks a Wonder-Woman-plot-checklist:

1. Take away powers and slowly return them
2. Kill her mom and bring her back eventually
3. Kill as many Amazons as possibly and detroy the island
4. Make her forget who she is. (Gail Simone did this in a 4 parter in the past 2 years)
5. Help her find herself so the fans can jump on if they are new (But please don't try and make what she finds consistent to the last run)
6. Change her costume and appearance. (Simone changed the outfit in the same 4 parter, Simonson cut her hair 4 years back)
7. Throw away the supporting cast and replace the with very similar characters with different names

As much as I hate the costume change and see no value in it (Google Poochie and The Simpsons for my full opinion) this retreading of plots and the lost oppurtunity to grow and build the titles mytholody on Simon and Rucka's work really drives me nuts. If you reset constantly, then you drive away any new readers that came along with the reset and you just continue to alienate the die hards who want this book to just get on with it and tell good stories.

Love JMS in other genres. Couldn't love "Changeling" any more! But this approach (with out without the costume)? Pure garbage.

All valid criticisms ... if the title didn't need to reverese declining sales to make it worthwhile to DC keeping it going in the long term. From the figures I have seen, as recently as 2007 WW was a top 20/30 comic with sales in the 45,000-65,000 range, but from there it has steadily declined to its current position as a top 80/90 comic with sales of less than 26,000 for Jan-May 2010.

While you (and others I have no doubt) love WW in its current form, DC clearly want to address the ongoing slide in sales under the current creative team. That means things have to change.

Can't remember who it was who said it first, but I think it applies here ...

If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got.

Blindly carrying on with WW as it is will probably do nothing to address the continued drop in sales, which ultimately threatens the very existence of the comic.

I haven't read much of JMS' comic work since he left Amazing Spider-Man, but he appears to have a reputation in the industry as a writer to turn to when characters need a kick in the pants to generate some enthusiasm. There will be always some who don't like that, and I am sorry that you feel the way you do about it.

Obviously there is no guarantee it will work, but the sales success of other JMS comics has clearly inspired DC to try something new and fresh in an attempt to revive a flagging icon. New and fresh is by its very nature a risk for all concerned and, if nothing else, WW fans should be pleased that DC want to revamp it and aren't happy simply to alow it to wither and die.

For myself, I have never read the book ... and my love of the TV show has more to do with Lynda Carter in that costume and my being 13 when it first aired in the UK.

And perhaps, ultimately, that's part of the problem.

[Dan Dassow]

INTERVIEW: J. Michael Straczynski Part II
Posted Thursday, July 1st, 2010 at 2:41 pm
http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/archives/14823

We spoke to J. Michael Straczynski last week about his launch of Superman, and now weÆve been given the chance to talk to him this week about his launch of Wonder Woman. The first issue of his run is in comic book stores now. ...

[Jan]

Looks like we've got a sellout:

http://www.deadline.com/2010/07/rebo...600-sells-out/

EXCLUSIVE: DC Comics is already doing a second print run after more than 60,000 copies were snapped up. There many 100,000 for the issue. Downloads of the free issue preview for Wonder Woman #600 though DC Comic's one-week-old digital publishing app have been "phenomenal", a source tells me.

Jan

[DaveRobinson]

I'm a comics fan.

I joined this site just to post in this thread; are you scared yet?

I could explode in an apoplectic fit of nerd rage over the new costume; but I won't. It doesn't thrill me, but it's not bad: her bike-shorts black outfit from the nineties was bad. This one's just okay. It looks to serve its purpose, but it doesn't do much more than that.

It's not bad, it's not great, it just is.

Now for the story: I've read issue 600, but that's not enough to form a real judgment on the story. It has elements I don't like, and others which I do. I know I like turning a corner into an alternate timeline better than what was done with Spider-Man. I like that it doesn't discard any previous continuity, and that it gives them a way out if need be.

I've seen a lot of strip down and rebuild stories lately, and I'm getting tired of them; though at least this time I didn't have to go through a year's worth of stripping down and the book will focus on the rebuilding. I'll call that a positive.

At least the rebuilding should provide new readers a good jumping-on point, and I'm very much in favor of that.

My real concern is the de-aging.

The problem I have is that it's not been made crystal clear that Diana is younger because the current arc is set in the past. I know it may seem obvious, and an odd concern, but it's the kind of thing any long-term DC fan might worry about.

The problem stems from a 1989 series called "Hawkworld," which provided a new origin for the Silver Age versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl. It was brilliantly told - and led into a new series for the characters: starting with their arrival on Earth. The problem was that this was set in the present, and therefore it invalidated every single story with either character since they had been introduced in 1961.

My concern is that unless it's made clear that this younger Diana is in the past, it could lead to a repeat of the same problem - and I don't want to see that kind of mess ever again.

The story itself looks like it could be very good - the art is the best I've ever seen from Don Kramer - but until that issue's settled I'm going to always have a few concerns floating around the back of my mind.

[sonofbaldwin]

I thought the story was very compelling. However, I find the costume neither attractive nor iconic. I think it looks more like something from the 90s than anything contemporary.

But Don Kramer's art was BEAUTIFUL!

[Jan]

Hi DaveRobinson and sonofbaldwin. Glad to have you here. No, not afraid, glad to have folks who want to talk about the books.

I think, and I'm no expert but I think that it doesn't matter if we're seeing the younger Diana in the past in this altered timeline or not, because she's fighting to restore the 'real' one. JMS just picked up the story when/where that fight really started. It seemed to me like this was the first time the princess was rebelling against her guardians so that's a good time to pick up the story.

But that raises a question that you more knowlegable sorts can help me with; what's WW/Diana's apparant age? I always thought of her as being in her mid-twenties and if so, there's not all that much time lost, I don't think. This alternate Diana is at least 2-or 21, I think.

And I agree completely, sonofbaldwin. The artwork is great!

Jan

[SmileOfTheShadow]

And I finally reviewed! http://truebelieverreviews.com/wordpress/?p=267

Happy 4th everyone! USA USA!

[DaveRobinson]

Hi DaveRobinson and sonofbaldwin. Glad to have you here. No, not afraid, glad to have folks who want to talk about the books.

I think, and I'm no expert but I think that it doesn't matter if we're seeing the younger Diana in the past in this altered timeline or not, because she's fighting to restore the 'real' one. JMS just picked up the story when/where that fight really started. It seemed to me like this was the first time the princess was rebelling against her guardians so that's a good time to pick up the story.

But that raises a question that you more knowlegable sorts can help me with; what's WW/Diana's apparant age? I always thought of her as being in her mid-twenties and if so, there's not all that much time lost, I don't think. This alternate Diana is at least 2-or 21, I think.

And I agree completely, sonofbaldwin. The artwork is great!

Jan

I think you're right on the 20-21 apparent age on Diana in this story, which is the problem, because the pre-corner version was at least late twenties if not early thirties.

The killer here is Donna Troy, the original Wonder Girl, who was Diana's teen sidekick: She's a 24-25 year old widow - and if Diana isn't re-aged she will come back younger than her former sidekick; and that's an insane continuity issue. Donna, who is now a member of the Justice League, has seen enough post-Wonder Girl development that the change in Diana's origin/backstory could be dealt with, but only if there's enough time for her to have grown up since Diana first appeared.

So if Diana's not in the past we have two divergences, not one, to deal with; first, Diana's birth being about eight years later than previously, and then the "Corner Event," about three years after that.

While the "Corner Event" makes perfect sense in the context of the story we've heard discussed, reversing it will not necessarily fix the other issue - and it's the one which would have major ripple effects throughout the entire DC Universe. Basically, if Diana is this much younger than previously, a large portion of the DCU just doesn't work.

That's my issue.

Otherwise the story seems perfectly fine - too early to really judge, but it's certainly not starting out badly.

[Jan]

Thanks for the background. I'm reasonably sure that back when I read WW even slightly regularly (just after the glaciers left, that is) any Wonder Girl stories were simply stories of Diana as a younger person. If there was a Donna, I sure don't remember her.

I don't have a clue what JMS might decide to do. I've seen him make us look at things differently and even go back into the past and discover new things about old characters but I do believe he has great respect for what's gone before.

If he were to make that big a change, I suspect that it would be at DCs behest. I'm not overly plugged in to the comics world but I keep hearing that part of this whole exercise is at least in part to pave the way for a WW feature film. Do you have any idea where that conjecture came from and whether it's based on reality or just wishful thinking?

If so, yeah, I can see where DC and/or the studio might want to make Diana younger. Studios *always* want to make the characters younger. I think it must be part of every job description. But to my way of thinking, while that would change things in the DCU, it doesn't invalidate what's gone before. Those stories are still right there on the shelf. If the characters don't currently remember them, it still doesn't change that they happened.

Jan

[DaveRobinson]

The original Wonder Girl stories were about Diana as a younger person; then they started publishing stories where Wonder Girl was having adventures with Robin in the Teen Titans at the same time that Wonder Woman was having adventures with Batman in the Justice League.

Since both stories could not be about the same character at the same time, they created a new character, Donna, and made the Wonder Girl stories about her.

I know what you mean about old stories being still on the shelf, and no change is going to make them any less readable. However, the problem comes when trying to build new stories on older foundations - any change that makes an older story impossible does the same for anything built on that foundation; and forget any chance of explaining the DCU (which is already considered too convoluted) to anyone just coming in.

I really hope this is in the past - it will be easier for everyone.