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Gah! What is it with the broken german all the time?

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  • manwithnoname
    replied
    Originally posted by Harrdy
    Most of the church was silent - as their policy was "Give the Caesar what is his" - and some even applauded the Nazis because of the deep hatred of Jews.
    The one I'm watching mentions that, but there was also a good amount in the church that rallied around Bonhoeffer to support him and go against the Nazis.

    Originally posted by Harrdy
    The reasons behind this hatred are the "betrayal" of Judas, the similar Religion, the Judaism being the elder religion, the wars around Jerusalem and many other. There was through the Middle Ages a hatred against Jews in Europe, sadly.
    I grew up in the Baptist Christian church environment. I've actually read 95% of the bible. My experience: A lot of people read only excerpts during bible meetings and on Sundays, therefore easily taking things out of context -- creating huge misunderstandings that, most often, people distort to fit their prejudices. Example: During America's colonial times, many church leaders and individuals used passages from the bible to justify black enslavement.

    The hatred and overall dislike of Jewish people is still very strong today, I believe. If one reads the bible from start to finish, you start to see how "christians" justify their prejudices against the Jews -- which I disagree with 100%.

    Originally posted by Harrdy
    So it seems to me Bonhoeffer was one of the few who where true to their belief, true to their self and stood in the way. He - and other like him - couldn't stop the Regime, but they show us that not everybody was a Nazi at that time. They are the conscience of the past (IMHO).
    I think he was true to the teachings of Christ. Parts of the church siding with the Nazis feared for their lives, which is understandable. But, if one believes in God, therefore Heaven, why be afraid of dying? PeAcE[/QUOTE]

    Harrdy, thanks for your thoughts on this.

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    To be honest I had to read on Wikipedia of him, but it seems he was one of the few who where not silent. Most of the church was silent - as their policy was "Give the Caesar what is his" - and some even applauded the Nazis because of the deep hatred of Jews. The reasons behind this hatred are the "betrayal" of Judas, the similar Religion, the Judaism being the elder religion, the wars around Jerusalem and many other. There was through the Middle Ages a hatred against Jews in Europe, sadly.

    So it seems to me Bonhoeffer was one of the few who where true to their belief, true to their self and stood in the way. He - and other like him - couldn't stop the Regime, but they show us that not everybody was a Nazi at that time. They are the conscience of the past (IMHO).

    I saw two parts of a documentation about failed assasination attempts against Hitler last weekend. I find it comforting that some people stand up against the criminal regime and very grim that so many attempts failed.

    PeAcE

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  • manwithnoname
    replied
    Harrdy, I'm an hour into a 90 min documentary on Bonhoeffer. It's really fascinating. What are your thoughts on him?

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    Which is a good thing, because eventually, it'll wind up like France and the EU overall.
    Well... I'm not so sure about that. We had about two blackouts and around 20 brownouts im my live here in Austria, which is quite nice compared to other countries where the energy is privaticed (it is now private here in austria, which I find not so very good. Initially the prices went down 20 percent, and now they are up 40-50 percent (of the original prices). But then there is the whole oil-price rising, so one cannot make a case of this). Also the horror of the british train system, which really lacked any quality since it was private. There are a lot of these singular experiences that add for me to the conclusion: BASIC goods (water, electricity, oil, public transport, etc.) *should* be owned by the State, everything else should be private. With the basics like e.g. Water: What comes out of it if there are multiple providers, what is the boon for me as a customer. The price? Hardly... The quality? It only wents downhill if it is private. And what about monopolies? If *all* the water is in the hand of one private owner... you remember what happened in South America?

    So I have a different view, I guess. I like the Market, the Market ist the biggest and best thing, I wouldn't trade it for a planned economy. But there are goods that are just to importent to leave them to the Market.

    By the way, the logical thing would be private owned money, everybody could print his own money and let the market decide which money is the best... have you seen this happening? Not even international, where e.g. Oil is priced in USD, even as some would like to buy/sell via Yen/Euro/whatever. There is no whish to make that open to the market. The real Kapitalism (as living in the USA) is no ideal Kapitalism, you have subsidies, toll, and all the nice, disorting stuff, no real free market. The question is: Do you *want* a free market, or do you want something else and compromise on the way...

    PeAcE

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Originally posted by Harrdy
    while I get strange looks by every american fellow when I tell them that austria has a strong "Social Market" economy (which is more and more sold to private owners, who fire the workers, etc.).
    Which is a good thing, because eventually, it'll wind up like France and the EU overall.

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    Love or hate it: Bendis is doing a great job with the way he writes Luke Cage in New Avengers.
    I really liked "Superman: Red Son" from Mark Millar, because it showed the Sowiet Union in a different light, and also - via the character of Superman - showed what the fallacy of the real Communism was. I guess a lot of the readers didn't like the picture drawn about the USA there, but the breakdown of the Sowiet Union was quite kataclymic (and UNEXPECTED, at least here in Austria), and I guess the breakdown of the United States - if it happened, there is no "Superman" in the real world, so everything there is quite speculative - would have been similar.

    (West-)Europe has an interresting history, being geograpicaly near to the Sowiet Union, but after the second world war being stratetic partner of the USA. So our view on the Sowiet Union is a different one, I guess. That explains why ideas like socialism are considered "good", while I get strange looks by every american fellow when I tell them that austria has a strong "Social Market" economy (which is more and more sold to private owners, who fire the workers, etc.).

    PeAcE

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    Speaking of things we believe in, check out Social Darwinism.
    I hope you use the "correct" version of Darwins theorem... the one of survival of the fittest, not survival of the strongest. To be fit - in evolutional terms - means to have something that helps you survive, the BIGGEST advantage until now has been multicellular live, meaning: Cooperation. Without cooperation live as we know it wouldn't be possible.

    I see an evolution of memes (check out the theory behind that, if you like), meaning that *ideas* fight for survival, an step above the social agendas. You could have an idea like "Kapitalism", and that idea is in direct conflict (not neccisary with war, conflict is possible on multiple layers) with e.g. "Market Socialism" or "Communism". That means by enforcing the survival of one system (e.g. via manipulating the market or outright war) we help the idea behind it survive. That means to some extent that the *believe* in the system is part of the game, if I don't believe in the system I am living in I wouldn't fight that hard to help it survive. So the wellbeing of singular individuals *DOES* account for which System survives, because one who has nothing, is stepped upon, etc. is not "connected" to the system. So I guess every *true* Kapitalism (I don't mean free market will die, I mean the idea of amassing wealth) will die out in the evolution of humanity. The fear I have is that every system which is dying tries to survive in every possible way, and that means war...

    So you see, social darvinism is not quite my perspective, but evolution is.

    As an additional bit of spice, Social Darvinism was the scientific reasoning behind the Holocaust. Because Nazi Germany thought itself to be the peak of human evolution, so they shouldn't be "polluted" with "impure stock", that was Jews, Arabs, african people, etc. But also "social impurities", that being gay, beggars, mentally ill, etc. In erridicating those people (at the beginning it was "only" sending them away, but the wouldn't go, so...) they thought they can breed the so called "Uebermensch", being the kind of human which Nietsche speculates upon (but Nietsche doesn't mean that idea as a reality, only as a target, something to strife to, not something to *reach*). The whole Nazi culture was based on Social Darvinism. That alone is reason for me to question the idea... and science showed that mixing with other "species" (I use the term, knowing there *are* no species in the human race) does not make one "impure" but on the contrary, making one especially healthy. Because a lot of genetic defect could be repaired that way.

    PeAcE
    Last edited by Harrdy; 05-23-2006, 05:24 AM.

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  • manwithnoname
    replied
    Your frustration over stereotypical depictions of Germans is understandable. American comics have and still do offer many stereotypical characters of other races.

    I forgot who said this, but it was a Marvel creator (Joe Q), (paraphrasing here): We now realize comics do not represent our diverse readers' backgrounds. Any future minority characters we introduce, great care will be taken to include that particular minority's unique background, not just another ethnic character in name only.

    Love or hate it: Bendis is doing a great job with the way he writes Luke Cage in New Avengers. David Mack wrote an incredibly emotional story arc in Daredevil that introduced Echo of Native American heritage. Arana (I don't read this title) is Latina, and that title is praised for its unstereotypical depiction of the main character.

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  • Karachi Vyce
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    In all of the debate about the supposed innate evilness of the right wing, I totally missed this very valid point:

    If there's ANYTHING that is unjustly considered a "baddie" in comics, it's The United States of America. Just wait for DC's new Uncle Sam series.
    I'd like to see JMS' just once write the U.S. government to be anything other than an evil, manipulating construct eager and willing to oppress it's people in full Stalinist fashion at the drop of a hat.

    Maybe he'll change should there be a change in parties in the White House in 2008.

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Speaking of things we believe in, check out Social Darwinism.

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    It's 'liar'. I know...english doesn't make sense.
    (sorry, my bad... *g*)

    As for Holocaust denial, no, that's covered under free speech. So is writing about the Earth being flat and other idiocies.
    Here one could argue that information per se is neither "good" or "bad" and the freedom of information is the basis of Democracy. On the other hand most people don't bring the "energy" (better: the time and the effort) to handle information responsible, meaning they value all information equaly, and therefore one has to endure a lot of: "The goverment is behind it, they tell you lies, LIES I TELL YOU! I WANT TO BELIEVE"-stuff. And while there is more then one truth (I believe (yes, I use the word "believe" in full knowledge that I subscribe to a philosophy and giving up all hope of a objective truth *g*) in Constructivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constru...t_epistemology ), and there is not one truth, but the truth people believe in) there is different "quality" of information, which IMHO should be considered... but who am I to judge the masses *g* (trying to put my Narcissism behind, TRYING *g*)

    PeAcE

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Harrdy
    By the way, there was a big process against a holocaust lyer (how is that word written, tried lier, lieer... all looks wrong). David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) was sentenced to three years of prison for denying the Holocaust. Do you have similar sentences in america? Or is the denial of the holocaust also under the right of free speech? (I'm just interrested...)
    It's 'liar'. I know...english doesn't make sense.

    As for Holocaust denial, no, that's covered under free speech. So is writing about the Earth being flat and other idiocies.

    Jan

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    Dr. Doom is from Latveria, which I understand is a fictional country.
    Of course it is, but the descripition (found on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latveria): Latveria is a fictional nation in the Marvel Universe. It is located between the real-life nations of Hungary, Serbia, and Romania.

    Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow. Is this the character you're referencing?
    No, there was this game ("Freedom Force vs The Third Reich" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...e_Third_Reich), and I thought that the characters where based on "real" (as far as real takes you there *g*) comic book characters. The name of the character I meant was "Red Oktober", and his boss was "Nuclear Winter"... you also have German, Japanese and Italian enemies... but the heroes are very american (with a french, a britain and a girl from somewhere around the orient as the exception)... but then that could have to do with trying to make a parody (I'm not sure on that account).

    Anyway, I was not complaining about the abundance of "american" heroes, even if it sounded like that... I was only complaining about the stereotypical assumptions. But then again, comics live on stereotypes (the strong/agile/etc. hero is a stereotype in itself). I'm just a little bit tired of reading about "the evil germans", again. I guess germany (and austria) is less polluted by Nazis then other countries nowadays, at least it is forbidden to have their point of view here.

    By the way, there was a big process against a holocaust lyer (how is that word written, tried lier, lieer... all looks wrong). David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) was sentenced to three years of prison for denying the Holocaust. Do you have similar sentences in america? Or is the denial of the holocaust also under the right of free speech? (I'm just interrested...)

    PeAcE

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  • Harrdy
    replied
    Was Checkmate part of the US govt?
    I would have thought so, but now I'm unsure... I will check that again.

    PeAcE

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  • manwithnoname
    replied
    Originally posted by Harrdy
    ...in some comics "the goverment" (of the united states) is evil (that OMAC stuff for example.
    I read the OMAC mini-series and the OMAC special one-shot. I didn't think Rucka portrayed the US government as evil. Checkmate, the organization, became corrupt through Max's influence. My perception is that Checkmate was and is an international organiztion. Now, it's an internationa organization that consists of humans and metahumans.

    Was Checkmate part of the US govt?

    Leave a comment:

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