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Gah! What is it with the broken german all the time?

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  • #16
    If there's ANYTHING that is unjustly considered a "baddie" in comics, it's The United States of America. Just wait for DC's new Uncle Sam series.
    Haven't seen that happening, but I guess in european underground comics it might be the case... just haven't seen it in any mainstream comic until now. What I experienced was either a "American world" view (meaning there is nothing outside america) or a "rest is of no concern" (meaning the rest of the world exists, and sometimes make a funny appearence (often the case eg in Superman, when Supe is in France - we know because of the Eiffeltower - and buys baguette or something for someone - because all that there is to France is the Baguette, isn't that true?)). But I grew up that way, I never wondered about it, until recently. One of the exceptions is forementioned "Lucifer" comic, where Germany is (one of) the "backdrop"(s).

    Most of the time other counties provide enemies, for example, isn't the enemy of the fantastic four from europe? Also russia has that red witch character (I don't know from which comic that comes). Hitler and the Nazis are omnipresent... something like what you mentioned was that in some comics "the goverment" (of the united states) is evil (that OMAC stuff for example), but not the country... well, maybe you can provide some examples?

    PeAcE
    Last edited by Harrdy; 05-22-2006, 03:00 AM.
    greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Harrdy
      ...isn't the enemy of the fantastic four from europe?
      Dr. Doom is from Latveria, which I understand is a fictional country.

      Originally posted by Harrdy
      Also russia has that red witch character (I don't know from which comic that comes).
      Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow. Is this the character you're referencing? She is an Avenger, not a present member; but once an Avengers, always an Avengers. Her depiction is not an evil depiction Russians.

      Perception wise, Marvel does represent more ethnic heroes than DC.

      I'm trying to stay on topic: Any good German characters anyone can think of portrayed in DC or Marvel comics?
      "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Harrdy
        ...in some comics "the goverment" (of the united states) is evil (that OMAC stuff for example.
        I read the OMAC mini-series and the OMAC special one-shot. I didn't think Rucka portrayed the US government as evil. Checkmate, the organization, became corrupt through Max's influence. My perception is that Checkmate was and is an international organiztion. Now, it's an internationa organization that consists of humans and metahumans.

        Was Checkmate part of the US govt?
        "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

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        • #19
          Was Checkmate part of the US govt?
          I would have thought so, but now I'm unsure... I will check that again.

          PeAcE
          greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

          Comment


          • #20
            Dr. Doom is from Latveria, which I understand is a fictional country.
            Of course it is, but the descripition (found on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latveria): Latveria is a fictional nation in the Marvel Universe. It is located between the real-life nations of Hungary, Serbia, and Romania.

            Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow. Is this the character you're referencing?
            No, there was this game ("Freedom Force vs The Third Reich" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...e_Third_Reich), and I thought that the characters where based on "real" (as far as real takes you there *g*) comic book characters. The name of the character I meant was "Red Oktober", and his boss was "Nuclear Winter"... you also have German, Japanese and Italian enemies... but the heroes are very american (with a french, a britain and a girl from somewhere around the orient as the exception)... but then that could have to do with trying to make a parody (I'm not sure on that account).

            Anyway, I was not complaining about the abundance of "american" heroes, even if it sounded like that... I was only complaining about the stereotypical assumptions. But then again, comics live on stereotypes (the strong/agile/etc. hero is a stereotype in itself). I'm just a little bit tired of reading about "the evil germans", again. I guess germany (and austria) is less polluted by Nazis then other countries nowadays, at least it is forbidden to have their point of view here.

            By the way, there was a big process against a holocaust lyer (how is that word written, tried lier, lieer... all looks wrong). David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) was sentenced to three years of prison for denying the Holocaust. Do you have similar sentences in america? Or is the denial of the holocaust also under the right of free speech? (I'm just interrested...)

            PeAcE
            greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Harrdy
              By the way, there was a big process against a holocaust lyer (how is that word written, tried lier, lieer... all looks wrong). David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) was sentenced to three years of prison for denying the Holocaust. Do you have similar sentences in america? Or is the denial of the holocaust also under the right of free speech? (I'm just interrested...)
              It's 'liar'. I know...english doesn't make sense.

              As for Holocaust denial, no, that's covered under free speech. So is writing about the Earth being flat and other idiocies.

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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              • #22
                It's 'liar'. I know...english doesn't make sense.
                (sorry, my bad... *g*)

                As for Holocaust denial, no, that's covered under free speech. So is writing about the Earth being flat and other idiocies.
                Here one could argue that information per se is neither "good" or "bad" and the freedom of information is the basis of Democracy. On the other hand most people don't bring the "energy" (better: the time and the effort) to handle information responsible, meaning they value all information equaly, and therefore one has to endure a lot of: "The goverment is behind it, they tell you lies, LIES I TELL YOU! I WANT TO BELIEVE"-stuff. And while there is more then one truth (I believe (yes, I use the word "believe" in full knowledge that I subscribe to a philosophy and giving up all hope of a objective truth *g*) in Constructivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constru...t_epistemology ), and there is not one truth, but the truth people believe in) there is different "quality" of information, which IMHO should be considered... but who am I to judge the masses *g* (trying to put my Narcissism behind, TRYING *g*)

                PeAcE
                greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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                • #23
                  Speaking of things we believe in, check out Social Darwinism.
                  Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                    In all of the debate about the supposed innate evilness of the right wing, I totally missed this very valid point:

                    If there's ANYTHING that is unjustly considered a "baddie" in comics, it's The United States of America. Just wait for DC's new Uncle Sam series.
                    I'd like to see JMS' just once write the U.S. government to be anything other than an evil, manipulating construct eager and willing to oppress it's people in full Stalinist fashion at the drop of a hat.

                    Maybe he'll change should there be a change in parties in the White House in 2008.
                    "I don't find myself in the same luxury as you. You grew up in freedom, and you can spit on freedom, because you don't know what it is not to have freedom." ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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                    • #25
                      Your frustration over stereotypical depictions of Germans is understandable. American comics have and still do offer many stereotypical characters of other races.

                      I forgot who said this, but it was a Marvel creator (Joe Q), (paraphrasing here): We now realize comics do not represent our diverse readers' backgrounds. Any future minority characters we introduce, great care will be taken to include that particular minority's unique background, not just another ethnic character in name only.

                      Love or hate it: Bendis is doing a great job with the way he writes Luke Cage in New Avengers. David Mack wrote an incredibly emotional story arc in Daredevil that introduced Echo of Native American heritage. Arana (I don't read this title) is Latina, and that title is praised for its unstereotypical depiction of the main character.
                      "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Speaking of things we believe in, check out Social Darwinism.
                        I hope you use the "correct" version of Darwins theorem... the one of survival of the fittest, not survival of the strongest. To be fit - in evolutional terms - means to have something that helps you survive, the BIGGEST advantage until now has been multicellular live, meaning: Cooperation. Without cooperation live as we know it wouldn't be possible.

                        I see an evolution of memes (check out the theory behind that, if you like), meaning that *ideas* fight for survival, an step above the social agendas. You could have an idea like "Kapitalism", and that idea is in direct conflict (not neccisary with war, conflict is possible on multiple layers) with e.g. "Market Socialism" or "Communism". That means by enforcing the survival of one system (e.g. via manipulating the market or outright war) we help the idea behind it survive. That means to some extent that the *believe* in the system is part of the game, if I don't believe in the system I am living in I wouldn't fight that hard to help it survive. So the wellbeing of singular individuals *DOES* account for which System survives, because one who has nothing, is stepped upon, etc. is not "connected" to the system. So I guess every *true* Kapitalism (I don't mean free market will die, I mean the idea of amassing wealth) will die out in the evolution of humanity. The fear I have is that every system which is dying tries to survive in every possible way, and that means war...

                        So you see, social darvinism is not quite my perspective, but evolution is.

                        As an additional bit of spice, Social Darvinism was the scientific reasoning behind the Holocaust. Because Nazi Germany thought itself to be the peak of human evolution, so they shouldn't be "polluted" with "impure stock", that was Jews, Arabs, african people, etc. But also "social impurities", that being gay, beggars, mentally ill, etc. In erridicating those people (at the beginning it was "only" sending them away, but the wouldn't go, so...) they thought they can breed the so called "Uebermensch", being the kind of human which Nietsche speculates upon (but Nietsche doesn't mean that idea as a reality, only as a target, something to strife to, not something to *reach*). The whole Nazi culture was based on Social Darvinism. That alone is reason for me to question the idea... and science showed that mixing with other "species" (I use the term, knowing there *are* no species in the human race) does not make one "impure" but on the contrary, making one especially healthy. Because a lot of genetic defect could be repaired that way.

                        PeAcE
                        Last edited by Harrdy; 05-23-2006, 05:24 AM.
                        greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Love or hate it: Bendis is doing a great job with the way he writes Luke Cage in New Avengers.
                          I really liked "Superman: Red Son" from Mark Millar, because it showed the Sowiet Union in a different light, and also - via the character of Superman - showed what the fallacy of the real Communism was. I guess a lot of the readers didn't like the picture drawn about the USA there, but the breakdown of the Sowiet Union was quite kataclymic (and UNEXPECTED, at least here in Austria), and I guess the breakdown of the United States - if it happened, there is no "Superman" in the real world, so everything there is quite speculative - would have been similar.

                          (West-)Europe has an interresting history, being geograpicaly near to the Sowiet Union, but after the second world war being stratetic partner of the USA. So our view on the Sowiet Union is a different one, I guess. That explains why ideas like socialism are considered "good", while I get strange looks by every american fellow when I tell them that austria has a strong "Social Market" economy (which is more and more sold to private owners, who fire the workers, etc.).

                          PeAcE
                          greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Harrdy
                            while I get strange looks by every american fellow when I tell them that austria has a strong "Social Market" economy (which is more and more sold to private owners, who fire the workers, etc.).
                            Which is a good thing, because eventually, it'll wind up like France and the EU overall.
                            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Which is a good thing, because eventually, it'll wind up like France and the EU overall.
                              Well... I'm not so sure about that. We had about two blackouts and around 20 brownouts im my live here in Austria, which is quite nice compared to other countries where the energy is privaticed (it is now private here in austria, which I find not so very good. Initially the prices went down 20 percent, and now they are up 40-50 percent (of the original prices). But then there is the whole oil-price rising, so one cannot make a case of this). Also the horror of the british train system, which really lacked any quality since it was private. There are a lot of these singular experiences that add for me to the conclusion: BASIC goods (water, electricity, oil, public transport, etc.) *should* be owned by the State, everything else should be private. With the basics like e.g. Water: What comes out of it if there are multiple providers, what is the boon for me as a customer. The price? Hardly... The quality? It only wents downhill if it is private. And what about monopolies? If *all* the water is in the hand of one private owner... you remember what happened in South America?

                              So I have a different view, I guess. I like the Market, the Market ist the biggest and best thing, I wouldn't trade it for a planned economy. But there are goods that are just to importent to leave them to the Market.

                              By the way, the logical thing would be private owned money, everybody could print his own money and let the market decide which money is the best... have you seen this happening? Not even international, where e.g. Oil is priced in USD, even as some would like to buy/sell via Yen/Euro/whatever. There is no whish to make that open to the market. The real Kapitalism (as living in the USA) is no ideal Kapitalism, you have subsidies, toll, and all the nice, disorting stuff, no real free market. The question is: Do you *want* a free market, or do you want something else and compromise on the way...

                              PeAcE
                              greetings from austria, best known for its history and fine wine... feels like a wine cellar on a graveyard 8-)

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                              • #30
                                Harrdy, I'm an hour into a 90 min documentary on Bonhoeffer. It's really fascinating. What are your thoughts on him?
                                "I am just a worthless liar. I am just an embecile. I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall as well. I will find a center in you; I will chew it up and leave. I will work to elevate you, just enough to bring you down. Why can't we drink forever? I just want to start this over!" TOOL

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