Is Jeffrey Sinclair really David Sheridan?

[rallytbk]

Is it even possible for Valen to have children with Catherine? Is there any information available concerning that question?

Well, it has to be assumed that Catherine Sakai had to undergo the Chrysalis to live with the Minbarià Whether their children were "full" Minbari or less of a Hybrid with each generation, it is understood that they left and returned to Minbar after a certain amount of time. The end result is that SinclairÆs human DNA mixed with Minbari DNA 1000 years before and during the Earth û Minbari War they discovered that link was to humans.

When I was watching the show I was convinced that Kosh (which I took as Vorlon for "One") was Sinclair. My theory went that after the shadow war Valen used the third triluminary to transform himself into a Vorlon. And returned to the station in "the Gathering".

That is an interesting twist to why Kosh helped John Sheridan fight the shadowsà Just change the idea of using the triluminary, to having the Vorlons making/chaging him one of their own, remember: Jason Ironheart was experimented on by Psi Corps and that experiment led to him becoming an energy entity. If Jason Ironheart could be an energy entity because of Psi Corps experiments, then surely the Volons (or First Ones) would have the knowledge to make Sinclair one of their own as Lorien made Sheridan one of their own and took him beyond the Rim.

Quote from LurkerÆs Guide to Babylon 5 Sleeping in Light : Sheridan's disappearance echoes the disappearance of Valen, who is presumed dead but whose body was never found ôAtonementö. Was Valen spirited away by Lorien as well?

[cornholio1980]

Well, it has to be assumed that Catherine Sakai had to undergo the Chrysalis to live with the Minbarià

Damn... here I am, thinking about this question, while the answer is just so obvious. You're absolutely right, of course she also would undergo the transformation, thus making it possible for the both of them to have children, no matter if they would be full minbari or some kind of hybrids. Thanks for pointing that out to me...

Was Valen spirited away by Lorien as well?

I don't think that there's a definite answer to that question, but I always assumed that Valen went over the rim, like Sheridan did. But how that happened exactly (with help by Lorien, or someone else), I've no idea...

[vacantlook]

I wonder if Valen could have full-on evolved into some form of energy being himself, which led to everyone thinking he died yet there being no body.

[rallytbk]

I love these speculations.

*cringes waiting for everyones head to explode*

"Let's try this again."
"As you wish."
"Zathras came with us to Babylon 4."
"Yes."
"Zathras stayed in the past with Valen."
"Yes."
"You are Zathras."
"Yes."
"Therefore, you went into the past."
"No, that was not Zathras, that was Zathras. There are 10 of us, all of family Zathras, each one named Zathras. Slight differences in how you pronounce. Zathraas, Zathras, Zathras.. You are seeing now?"
"There are ten of you?"
"Yes! Well, nine now."
"And Zathras?"
"Zathras gone! Zathras warned Zathras, but Zathras never listened to Zathras. Zathras was quiet one in family. SO! What can Zathras be doing for you?"
-- Ivanova and Zathras in Babylon 5:"Conflicts of Interest"

[Laiden]

thank you Rally for reminding me of Ivanova's head-exploding experience.

oh, and as of yesterday, I have just begun a "Babylon 5 in 30 days" marathon which includes everything up to Legend of the Rangers.

[grumbler]

Well, it has to be assumed that Catherine Sakai had to undergo the Chrysalis to live with the Minbarià Whether their children were "full" Minbari or less of a Hybrid with each generation, it is understood that they left and returned to Minbar after a certain amount of time. The end result is that SinclairÆs human DNA mixed with Minbari DNA 1000 years before and during the Earth û Minbari War they discovered that link was to humans.

I don't have time to look now, but I am pretty sure JMS says that Catherine Sakai did NOT under go transformation.

That is an interesting twist to why Kosh helped John Sheridan fight the shadowsà Just change the idea of using the triluminary, to having the Vorlons making/chaging him one of their own, remember: Jason Ironheart was experimented on by Psi Corps and that experiment led to him becoming an energy entity. If Jason Ironheart could be an energy entity because of Psi Corps experiments, then surely the Volons (or First Ones) would have the knowledge to make Sinclair one of their own as Lorien made Sheridan one of their own and took him beyond the Rim.

Interesting speculation... but Kosh appears to have been present at Sinclair/Valen's arrival in the past. Appearance is not definitive, however. I need to think about the Kosh=Sinclair angle a bit more before i can say anything.

That would imply that Delenn, who disappeared looking for Valen's fate, found something Vorlon vice something Lorensih, because she had a strong clue when she left on this search.

Quote from LurkerÆs Guide to Babylon 5 Sleeping in Light : Sheridan's disappearance echoes the disappearance of Valen, who is presumed dead but whose body was never found ôAtonementö. Was Valen spirited away by Lorien as well?

This has always been my assumption: that Valen when to Z'Ha'Dum to find out why the Shadows always returned, and encountered Lorien there. Valen was "not the one" though.

[vacantlook]

...but I am pretty sure JMS says that Catherine Sakai did NOT under go transformation.

Looks like you're right.

jms answering "Did Sakai become Minbari too?"

No, she didn't. Which was part of the scandal that later came.

jms

[cornholio1980]

This has always been my assumption: that Valen when to Z'Ha'Dum to find out why the Shadows always returned, and encountered Lorien there.

Good theory, I like that.

Looks like you're right.
jms answering "Did Sakai become Minbari too?"

Well, that raises the question again if and how Sinclair and Sakai could have children together...

[I love Lyta]

I know that the phrase "They passed beyond the rim." is just a way to say they vanished out of the known universe.
But if one would take it literally one would really have to ask oneself why existing in the great darkness between galaxies was such a big deal.
I mean it's just that. A big darkness between a galaxy and others. What would be so special about it apart from being a place noone is really interested in because it holds nothing interesting?
I find it quite strange that even the oldest of races are not able of travelling to other galaxies whenever they feel like it.
Unlike i.e. in the Perry Rhodan universe. *awaits the first blow *

Hope you get my point.

[WorkerCaste]

Good theory, I like that.


Well, that raises the question again if and how Sinclair and Sakai could have children together...

Well, Delenn (transformed) and Sheridan (human) had a child, so Sinclair (transformed) and Sakai (human) should be able to as well. We know it presented difficulties, but it wasn't impossible.

[cornholio1980]

Well, Delenn (transformed) and Sheridan (human) had a child, so Sinclair (transformed) and Sakai (human) should be able to as well. We know it presented difficulties, but it wasn't impossible.

The problem with your theory: Delenn started out Minbari. So as I've pointed out before, in order to be sure that Sinclair and Sakai could have kids, we would have to know if Delenn was still able to have children with a Minbari after her transformation. Which I'm not sure of, given the severe biological changes that she quite obviously underwent (as stated by both her and Doctor Franklin many times throughout the series).

[WorkerCaste]

The problem with your theory: Delenn started out Minbari. So as I've pointed out before, in order to be sure that Sinclair and Sakai could have kids, we would have to know if Delenn was still able to have children with a Minbari after her transformation. Which I'm not sure of, given the severe biological changes that she quite obviously underwent (as stated by both her and Doctor Franklin many times throughout the series).

First, note I said "should" and not "could." Even knowing if Delenn could have children with a Minbari after the transformation would not result in a "could" since nothing in the series addressed the DNA changes to a level of detail where we could make the arguments. My post really was a simplified form of my theory, if I could be said to have one. I just addressed the mechanics as best I could since that seemed germain to the comment. Now, the full theory would run something more on the lines of what follows. We have certain elements of canon: Valen had children; Valen had wanted to marry Sakai; there are very strong indications that Valen "found" Sakai somewhere in the time stream; Valen's children were part of a scandal because they had human DNA and that DNA was passed on. The simplest, and thus preferred, explanation that doesn't contradict these elements is that Valen and Sakai had children. That doesn't mean it's an fact -- just that it's the simplest explanation available. Because canon tells us that transformed DNA and pure DNA could produce a child, the possibility of the theory is supported by the failure to disprove it. That's why I chose to mention it. I'll stick with the simplest explanation for Valen's children until such time as it is disproved by canon in some measure, but I readily admit that the theory would be incorrect if any of the following were true: Valen didn't have children of his body, i.e. his children were figurative not literal; Valen found some other "her" than Sakai; Valen's children were born in a mating with a Minbari before finding Sakai or after her death; Valen and Sakai were unable to have children. I'm not aware of anything in canon, though, that establishes any of these items.

[Spoo Junky]

Delenn became more human to balance the scales of Sinclair becoming Minbari. Delenn kept the Minbari feature on her head, maybe Sinclair kept something else so he could have children with Sakai.

BTW, I had to really work at keeping one thing from sounding like another when describing Delenn's and Sinclair's "features"

[cornholio1980]

First, note I said "should" and not "could."

Yes, I know, and I just wanted to mention that I have some doubts if this, while obviously the solution which appears the most logical from what we've learned so far, is also the RIGHT solution. But I agree that we should indeed stick with the "Valen and Sakai had children"-solution until we're told otherwise

[Laiden]

"They had better start having babies . . ."