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3 main reasons why you will get Season 5 dvd

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  • #46
    I'm beginning to wonder if JMS' success went to his head:

    - Crusade was killed because JMS refused to do what TNT requested (and rightly so... having Captain Gideon order the female lead to have sex with an alien IS going over the top)

    - Jeremiah is now dead because JMS disagreed with network execs

    - And JMS has had problems with Top Cow Comics management... such that this series might not get finished either.


    JMS is so busy fighting with managers that he's not finishing his projects. Not good. That kind of thing will get around and make him un-employable. (I know cause it happened to me...I've learned now to stop complaining and just take the money.)

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    • #47
      Better cancel good projects then to make them stupid.
      IMO good call by JMS.
      Sleeping in Light-----Darnit! Shut the Window.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by RCmodeler
        I'm beginning to wonder if JMS' success went to his head:

        - Crusade was killed because JMS refused to do what TNT requested (and rightly so... having Captain Gideon order the female lead to have sex with an alien IS going over the top)

        - Jeremiah is now dead because JMS disagreed with network execs

        - And JMS has had problems with Top Cow Comics management... such that this series might not get finished either.


        JMS is so busy fighting with managers that he's not finishing his projects. Not good. That kind of thing will get around and make him un-employable. (I know cause it happened to me...I've learned now to stop complaining and just take the money.)
        We only have one example of what the studio (not network, btw) execs were doing on Jeremiah but that one example shows that they tried to undermine the 'chain of command' by trying to give an order to a manager whom they had no business contacting. And that order was about as egregious as the one TNT tried to pull on Crusade.

        The problems with Top Cow have been settled and JMS is or has handed in the final three issues of Rising Stars. The 'problem' was that TC had lied to JMS who insists on being treated honorably and by contractual terms.

        You may have given in to pressure but JMS is at a level where he has a reputation for quality and he *must* protect that. He's also able to work in enough different media that he'll still be able to tell his stories. He'll likely be around long after whichever pin-headed exec gave him trouble.

        I support his choices every step of the way and I'll seek any story he tells in any media because I trust that what's important to him is the story.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Jan
          You may have given in to pressure
          Well my big mouth left me jobless and nearly bankrupt. I don't want to be in that situation again.


          JMS worked on "Murder She Wrote" in the 1980s. I wonder if he ever had any creative differences with the CBS execs? Surely he must have had some... but apparently he kept quiet about it.

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          • #50
            I don't think JMS is doing anything different now than what he did before. The difference is that he is doing it for a different bunch of execs.

            JMS couldn't kill Jerimiah, as he doesn't own it. If Showtime kills it, that has nothing to do with JMS.

            JMS did effectively kill Crusade but I think that is generally acknowledge as a mercy killing.

            And the Top Cow fiasco was clearly the result of some poor decision making by TC execs. Given that JMS had rights to RS and those rights were violated, he was correct to make a stink about it. He didn't insist that people stop (as he noted, "I am a big boy and know how [these things] work") just that he be consulted on (or at least informed of) changes made to what was partly his property. Given that TC has agreed with him now, this seems to have been the right step for him.

            And given that he is still gainfully employed and has people who are waiting in line to hire him, I'd say he has played his cards well enough.

            I just wish he hadn't been so eager to try out some "new concepts" in LotR that ended up, IMO, looking goofy as hell.

            And as a final thought, I would say that the chances of any TV networks being willing to tsart another B5-like "novel for television" are nil. Great as B5 was, it was a format that proved to be a difficult sell to any audience unwilling to follow it fanatically. That is why I am so grateful that it was completed, because it is probably a one-of-a-kind deal. The tradeoff between story excellence and watchability will never again be made in favor of story excellence, IMO.
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by grumbler
              And as a final thought, I would say that the chances of any TV networks being willing to tsart another B5-like "novel for television" are nil. Great as B5 was, it was a format that proved to be a difficult sell to any audience unwilling to follow it fanatically.
              Well, soap operas have been around for decades. There are SOME audiences willing to follow that format. In fact, "telenovellas" are common in Europe and also Japan. It's just a matter of creating something interesting enough to make people watch: Like The West Wing (also a continuing story).

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              • #52
                B5 was always so ridiculously under budget that it shocked me that JMS was given as much of a hassle as he was later on after B5. The amount they were able to do with the budget they had compared to shows of the time (like DS9, that had about 3x the size of the budget) is staggering

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by RCmodeler
                  Well, soap operas have been around for decades. There are SOME audiences willing to follow that format. In fact, "telenovellas" are common in Europe and also Japan. It's just a matter of creating something interesting enough to make people watch: Like The West Wing (also a continuing story).
                  Soaps, The West Wing, and, for that matter Hill Street Blues all had some running plotlines, but were not "novels for television" in the sense that you needed to follow every episode to understand any given episode, and that they are/were aiming for a specific resolution. Soaps have a great deal of "filling in the backstory" and the other examples cited used the ongoing story only to add a fillip for those who follow it. Maybe "24" is more like B5, but even it can be tuned into midstream to some extent. And even it doesn't try for a multi-season story.

                  Euro and Japanese shows may be "novels for television" in which you cannot miss an episode of a multiyear arc, but I wouldn't know. It wasn't true in Europe 20 years ago, but that says nothing.

                  Even JMS conceded with Crusade that more attention had to be paid to the casual viewer (which also, not coinicdently for him, allowed far more scope for outside writing).

                  So I would still hold that, bar some European or Japanese shows I haven't seen, the concept of the 100+ episode "novel for TV" is probably dead.
                  I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by grumbler
                    Euro and Japanese shows may be "novels for television" in which you cannot miss an episode of a multiyear arc, but I wouldn't know. It wasn't true in Europe 20 years ago, but that says nothing.
                    You're right. Those Euro/Japanese shows are less than a year. B5 is the only show that spanned more than 1 year.

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                    • #55
                      Wow, I totally missed this page when I made the above post

                      Anyways, I agree with Grumbler that B5 is one of a kind, and that chances of us seeing something like that again are... quite small. Studios just aren't crazy to get thrown into something that 1) they have to support for 5 years 2) Even if it is successful, will have to go away in 5 years, thus decreasing their ability to create a real franchise (even if they do use spin-offs, which always lose a good portion of the viewership)

                      But as for alienating new viewers, I don't think it was too too bad. It's about on par with 24 (which is like B5 only it's an extended-planned out story on a season basis rather then a series basis), which can leave you confused if you jump in midseason, but still enjoyable.

                      If you wanna see a show that *really* alienates new viewership, look no further then Farscape, which was never able to really increase their viewership too well due to how much of their stories depended upon having seen every single episode.

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                      • #56
                        If you wanna see a show that *really* alienates new viewership, look no further then Farscape, which was never able to really increase their viewership too well due to how much of their stories depended upon having seen every single episode.
                        I never really understood this complaint. I jumped in with both feet towards the end of season 2. I think all I saw was the last ten minutes of "The Locket" and I was hooked. Didn't understand who everyone was, but it didn't much matter, it ruled. A lot of the plots were one shot adventures, only the characters had their arcs, or in the case of the stars, a temperature meter (I speak other than obligatory season-endings and multi-parts).

                        Honestly wasn't much more involved than Buffy was. Something much more popular, I might add.

                        */off topic*
                        Radhil Trebors
                        Persona Under Construction

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                        • #57
                          You know, if viewers felt "alienated" and/or "got lost" watching B5, you would expect the ratings to gradually decline, because viewers would abandon ship.

                          Yet the ratings are consistent. From season 2 to season 3 to season 4 the rating for B5 was a constant ~3.0%. In other words, the viewers stayed with the show.

                          I think we need to stop assuming that American viewers are too dumb to understand/follow a novel for TV. Clearly they understood B5 well enough to stick with it.
                          Last edited by RCmodeler; 03-15-2004, 09:42 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by RCmodeler
                            Yet the ratings are consistent. From season 2 to season 3 to season 4 the rating for B5 was a constant ~3.0%. In other words, the viewers stayed with the show.

                            I think we need to stop assuming that American viewers are too dumb to understand/follow a novel for TV. Clearly they understood B5 well enough to stick with it.
                            Or putting it the other way ~97% did not follow the series. Definitely an art house product.

                            Hollywood and TV companies were set up to sell to the working class. With 3 TV channels (or theatres) an achievable hope was for 100/3 = 33% of the audience.

                            With 100 channels that drops to 100/100 = 1% of the audience. To get 3% a program has had to take the audience from at least 3 channels - not easy.

                            Having got the audience the problem for the suits is to find advertisers who are willing to pay for them.
                            Andrew Swallow

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
                              Or putting it the other way ~97% did not follow the series.
                              Not the least bit usual. Star Trek: Voyager and Enterprise have the exact same result. Don't try to claim B5 did poorly in ratings. It simply isn't true.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by RCmodeler
                                Not the least bit usual. Star Trek: Voyager and Enterprise have the exact same result. Don't try to claim B5 did poorly in ratings. It simply isn't true.
                                For a soap opera it did badly. For a cult show it did well.

                                My last 2 paragaphs apply.
                                Andrew Swallow

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