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What really happend to Crusade?!?

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  • What really happend to Crusade?!?

    Hi there, I just watched the 13 Episodes on DVD and still its hard to believe WHY it was shut down. Sure, I heard about the explaination from JMS...about the trouble with TNT...but man Crusade was just in its early stage. This was real cool stuff and it was keeping the storyline with B5 and its universe. I cant imagine why there was not a single network willing to buy Crusade. The effects were the best at the time for TV, the actors were just great and the characters even better in their first episodes compared to the first 13 episodes of B5. This series was able to beat any Star Trek show any time. even now. So I can not understand why this had to die. AND further more I can not understand why it ended unsolved. The last episode had the potential to solve the storyarch. but I got the feelin JMS didnt want it to solve at that time cause he hoped to get on with it some time later. But that never really happened, did it? So Im curious...what are your thoughts about all this?
    "It is our last best hope for peace, for victory, for freedom, it is Babylon 5"

  • #2
    Originally posted by RaySeventy8
    So Im curious...what are your thoughts about all this?
    If you know JMS's explanation, you have most of the story. The other part was that, while TNT didn't want it, they wouldn't let anybody else have it for a reasonable amount (can we say "Dog in the Manger"?). My memory on this is a little hazy, but as I recall, they wouldn't let the rerun rights to B5 go or the episodes of Crusade go unless they were paid for the entire production that had already been done. They weren't willing to just cut their losses, they wanted to profit. In addition, I believe that Sci Fi channel was the most likely buyer and they really wanted to own part of the series. From what I understand, WB absolutely wouldn't part with any portion of ownership.

    This is all by memory, though. If I remember more details or can find them, I'll post.

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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    • #3
      From what I've read about it, Sci-Fi channel was interested in picking it up but at the time, they couldn't find room in their budget for it. I've looked through the archived posts and couldn't find anything, but the Lurker's Guide had this:
      1999-02-26: The Sci-Fi Channel tried to arrange to pick Crusade up after TNT decided to only order 13 episodes.

      Well, we took our best shot. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.
      The SciFi Channel programming guys wanted the show; they wanted it a lot. They crunched numbers for almost two weeks trying to make it work. But at the end of the day, the problem was that they had already allocated or spent their budget for the year, and couldn't come up with the huge chunk of change necessary to get an entire season. Had this come up prior to January 1st, things would almost certainly have gone differently. But they have their budget, as we have ours, and it was already allocated.
      RIP Coach Larry Finch
      Thank you Memphis Grizzlies for a great season.
      Play like your fake girlfriend died today - new Notre Dame motivational sign

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      • #4
        Originally posted by RaySeventy8
        ... AND further more I can not understand why it ended unsolved. The last episode had the potential to solve the storyarch. but I got the feelin JMS didnt want it to solve at that time cause he hoped to get on with it some time later. But that never really happened, did it? So Im curious...what are your thoughts about all this?
        IIRC, and it is going back a few years now, I don't believe JMS thought that the series was over once and for all at the point that production was put into hiatus for a second time.

        After all, they were preparing to shoot the next episode (Value Judgements, featuring Bester) at the time. There was no resolution because TNT just pulled the plug and left it hanging after 13 episodes.

        I stand to be corrected if I am talking out of my posterior, however.

        The Optimist: The glass is half full
        The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
        The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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        • #5
          You guys have pretty much summed it all up. Just one more little thing to add to the whole Sci-Fi thing . . .

          All of this happened right around the time that Sci-Fi was trying to establish themselves as a major network player. When Crusade was cancelled they had their first three original series - Farscape, Third Wave, and Sliders Season 4 - locked in, all of which were expensive for them. They wanted Crusade, but had already committed to these shows. Despite all this they made TNT an offer and TNT, afraid that Crusade would succeed in Sci-Fi's new system, made them a ridiculous counter-offer that they knew Sci-Fi could never afford. So, Sci-Fi decided just to get the re-run rights for B5, the movies, and Crusade, and move on.

          And, sadly, Crusade died.

          (If I'm not mistaken this eventually lead them to want another B5 property, and so LOTR was born)
          Last edited by JDSValen; 09-01-2005, 06:34 PM.
          http://www.andrewcardinale.com
          @acardi

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          • #6
            So thank you guys for your comments. I was not able to imagine how freezin cold things really are in the world of commerce and profit. So can anyone tell me if there is a novel or something that lets us know what happened the Excalibur and her mission? Im quite sure its been a success otherwise Franklin would not be able to see Sheridan 15 years later in SIL. Lets hope JMS will come up with something B5-related new story that he can actually work out from the beginning to the end. Its pretty hard to believe that B5 should be the one and only TV show ever that worked out as a 5-year storyline. As JMS stated often enough...he did what he came for (by completing B5) but there are still a lot of stories to be told. Who would not agree?!?
            "It is our last best hope for peace, for victory, for freedom, it is Babylon 5"

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            • #7
              Yes, we know that the cure would have been found because we did see Franklin in Sleeping in Light. JMS has said that the cure most likely would have been found in year two. As for the rest...

              There were three scripts already written at the time that production was shut down. One, by Fiona Avery (Value Judgments #115), was a story about the Excalibur crew meeting Bester who's on the run following conviction of war crimes during the Telepath Crisis. The other two (To the Ends of the Earth #114 and End of the Line #116) were by JMS and would have cranked up Gideon's search for what it was that destroyed his ship. End of the line was to be the final episode of season one and leaves us with a cliffhanger.

              TMoS would have given us part of the story apparently. When asked at the Hawthorne con (May 2004) if we'd ever see the more of the Crusade story, JMS pointed to "TMoS 101" which somebody (me ) had written on the blackboard but he'd erased.

              Will it ever happen? If somebody comes to JMS with the money and wherewithall to make it, he's said he's willing. Let's just hope that person exists and comes along soon.

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jan
                Will it ever happen? If somebody comes to JMS with the money and wherewithall to make it, he's said he's willing. Let's just hope that person exists and comes along soon.

                Jan

                I'll get on it just as soon as I win the lottery.
                "Ivanova is God!"

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                • #9
                  Okay, just don't forget the part about buying a ticket, okay?

                  Details, details...

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                  • #10
                    Jeanne Cavelos' Techno-Mage Trilogy (which is awesome, btw) goes into alot of back-story about Galen and actually reveils a lot about the chracter, most ov which would have been in Crusade if they had gotten that far. It intersects perfectly with the Isobel/Galen scene in Crusade, as well as the rescue of Gideon and pretty much the entire "Geometry of Shadows" episode. I highly recommend them.
                    http://www.andrewcardinale.com
                    @acardi

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                    • #11
                      JDSValen wrote:

                      "Jeanne Cavelos' Techno-Mage Trilogy (which is awesome, btw) goes into alot of back-story about Galen and actually reveils a lot about the chracter, most ov which would have been in Crusade if they had gotten that far. It intersects perfectly with the Isobel/Galen scene in Crusade..."

                      Not exactly. The Technomage trilogy is a joy to read - very well done. But, the death of Isobel is totally different on Crusade. The scene on Crusade was very nicely done and the actors were very sensitive in their work. In the book, Isobel is killed...I should stop here to avoid spoiling things for anyone who hasn't read the books. Please re-read the books, at least the part about Isobel's death. In my opinion the book explains the deep rage Galen carries.

                      I just noticed as I was tryping...Galen...Valen. Coincidence? Probably.

                      Speaking of rage, that is how I feel about the shameless murder of Crusade by GREEDY MORONS in suits at TNT. Their seats in Hell are reserved!

                      We are still not getting the whole story. Has anyone else noticed that the actors who created unforgettable characters in Crusade do not mention it in their lists of previous performances? Some mention one time appearances on regular shows, but none mention the work they did on all of Crusade! Something is going on here. It looks like they are ashamed of the brilliant work they did on Crusade. Daniel Dae Kim and Gary Cole are the most visible regulars from Crusade these days yet it's as though Crusade never happened in their lives. WHY!!!??? Has connection to Crusade become a liability?

                      The Dilgars... , er, suits at TNT are not fit to bear the classification of sentient beings!
                      Michael Malloy

                      Never forget:

                      Moscow; Beslan 2004
                      Kosovo: 1999, 2004
                      New York City: September 11, 2001
                      Smyrna: September 9, 1922

                      http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-title.html
                      Armenian Genocide in Turkey: 1915-1917
                      http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

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                      • #12
                        The scene in Crusade is word for word in the book . . . page 298-299 of Book 1 in fact. The difference is that the book showed the events leading up to the death where as Crusade only showed us a snapshot, if you will, of just her death.

                        And re-watch "Path of Sorrows" . . . Galen's rage is the same.
                        Last edited by JDSValen; 09-03-2005, 02:41 PM.
                        http://www.andrewcardinale.com
                        @acardi

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                        • #13
                          JDSValen wrote:

                          "The scene in Crusade is word for word in the book . . . page 298-299 of Book 1 in fact. The difference is that the book showed the events leading up to the death where as Crusade only showed us a snapshot, if you will, of just her death."

                          Thanks! It seems I have some re-reading to do . And you even cite page numbers, that's great!

                          My memory of her death is a bit foggy, I'll admit. Morden had something to do with it, I think. And her whole body was turned to stone or something I thought. I'll check that passage in the book.

                          I share Galen's rage, only mine is directed at the PIN-HEADS at TNT who murdered Crusade before it was born.
                          Michael Malloy

                          Never forget:

                          Moscow; Beslan 2004
                          Kosovo: 1999, 2004
                          New York City: September 11, 2001
                          Smyrna: September 9, 1922

                          http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-title.html
                          Armenian Genocide in Turkey: 1915-1917
                          http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The one thing that really irked me at the end of the techno-mage trilogy was that it was Galen who rescued Morden.
                            I don't quite believe that Galen would have been able to forgive him and rescue him just because he believes Morden could change and think he has no more obligations to serve the Shadows when the big city on Z is destroyed.
                            What's up Drakh?

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