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races as old as the shadows besides the firstones???

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  • races as old as the shadows besides the firstones???

    in the pilot episode for crusade (call to arms), sheridan says that they know that there are races at least as old as the shadows.

    O-KAY--


    1.The First Ones = the oldest races there were born

    2.most of them left beyond the rim after the last war, and a few went to sleep and 'walked' the stars as giants(personally, i think they just got bored and went away to have some fun. -fwiffo)

    3.after the war on coriana all the first ones left

    4.in 4x06(the end of the shadowar) sheridan said that now that all the first ones are gone only the 'younger races' are left=paradox

    http://slylendro.3d-life.com/riku/sheridan_bs.mp3

    this is the audio part of the episode

    btw does jms reads this?

  • #2
    1. No, JMS does not read these posts.

    2. Sheridan encountered a race as old as the First Ones in Thirdspace.

    3. In the Rangers pilot the crew encounters minions of a race older than the Vorlons who were banished to another dimension and are trying to return to our universe. Their servant says that the Shadows are as insects compared to them, but there's no particular reason to think he's telling the truth rather than trying to scare the people he's talking to.

    4. The "First Ones" only dominated a portion of one galaxy. The younger races in B5 can travel between the stars but over relatively limited distances, and there is certainly no indication that they were capable of even exploring our entire galaxy, much less travel between galaxies. So the First Ones were the "first one" in our particular neighborhood, not the entire universe. (Some of the galaxies out there are no doubt older than ours, and both life and sentience would have developed in those galaxies long before they did here.) So nobody really knows what all is out there in the unexplored Milky Way, much less in the rest of the universe - but the safe bet (given the Thirdspace experience) is that there are old and very dangerous races still out there. Those races just don't have the quasi-parental relationship with us that our "First Ones" did, or the personal interest in and history with us.

    Regards,

    Joe
    Last edited by Joseph DeMartino; 01-14-2004, 10:37 AM.
    Joseph DeMartino
    Sigh Corps
    Pat Tallman Division

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    • #3
      Joe DeM, you obviously know a lot about this, so I ask you:
      Is your comment about the First Ones being the first ones only on our part of the Galaxy cannon?
      I always assumed they were the First Ones in all of our galaxy, and that those races went "beyond the rim" when there was nothing left for them to do in the galaxy.

      And how long is a "generation"? Can we say "the Second ones are the races that came NN years after the First Ones"
      I also wonder, are humans sort of the 3rd or 4th ones?

      Not related actually, but the First Ones shepherding the younger races sometimes reminds me of the Uplift concept of David Brin.
      Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
      James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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      • #4
        Joe DeM gives a very good answer although I always thought it was a little nebulous whether the First Ones left the rim of the galaxy or the universe . I know that Sheridan says 'get out of our galaxy' but there were other episodes that seemed to imply the entire universe.

        Maybe, someone could enlighten me.

        Also, I'm not 100 % sure but I think the writer of my signature line predates David Brin.
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        • #5
          Having just watched that set of episodes in S4, I can say that Lorian definitely states that they leave "for the great emptiness between the galaxies", are his specific words at one point. Just the words "beyond the rim", so often spoken, imply the edge of the galaxy, and it's said early in season one, I think, that The Rim is the galactic edge.

          Leaving the universe would be kind moot - I'd think they'd just end up in another.
          Radhil Trebors
          Persona Under Construction

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          • #6
            Is your comment about the First Ones being the first ones only on our part of the Galaxy cannon?
            Neither canon nor not. One of the things I was trying to get at is that we simply don't know, because the show never establishes this one way or the other.

            Re: The Rim - it couldn't be the "edge of the universe." For one thing , the universe has no discernable edge, and if it did, it would be much furhter away than any galaxy. And since people in the show are constantly talking about "exploring out on the Rim" there is no way that could be a common practice. (Z'ha'dum itself is out "on the Rim")

            Regards,

            Joe
            Joseph DeMartino
            Sigh Corps
            Pat Tallman Division

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Radhil


              Leaving the universe would be kind moot - I'd think they'd just end up in another.
              Good point !

              I must admit, though, that I was being a bit of an a underplayer in my questioning. It was a poor attempt at thrusting a 'three edged sword' of irony- concerning 1st ones (and authors) and enlightenment.
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              • #8
                I am pretty sure when discussing the Rim and going beyond it, they mean the Milky Way's rim.

                Also I wonder what percentage of galaxy is known to the Shadows and Vorlons. As it is, it looks like the known young races live in a select portion of the galaxy (at least in the maps I've seen). This leaves a large area unspoken of. But in the map that Londo and Morden review they divide up the galxy between themselves. Perhaps it was a ploy to trick Londo, but it does seem that the whole of the galaxy is open to the First Ones.

                No mention is made of other powers, by Vorlons or Shadows (though with some of the parallels between LotR and B5, it seems like an ideal expanse from which to bring allies of the Shadows, or Vorlons). It seems like a place curiously unimportant in the Vorlon/Shadow scheme of things.

                Is it a dead area, where the races that rose and fell long ago live? Was it layed to ruins in the past grousing matches of the 2 ancient sides? Is it where failed races rose and fell long ago? Is it a promised land, where those races that "ascend" over the next million years move on to.

                You know, maybe the galaxy is a lot like a farm field, you divide it up and only use certain parts at a given time, allowing the other areas to be renewed and revived for future races. Could the universe and galaxy operate in such a curious way?
                "You folks should understand that we're out there now. We might not be ready for a lot of this stuff, but we're doing the best we can. We are a very curious race."

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