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  • #16
    Couldn't "I found her" mean that he had found "her" the love of his life. It could be a new woman, not necessarily an old one.

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    • #17
      Go read the novel I pointed out to you in the other thread on this. It has much more detail, and I think it would be more "canon" (if there is such a thing) than the comic.

      It has to be Catherine.
      Radhil Trebors
      Persona Under Construction

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      • #18
        Ok, I guess I have a disadvantage there, since I have only watched the series.

        I can't wait to get the 5th season, Crusade and the TV movies on DVD.

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        • #19
          The novel makes a similar comment, leaving a letter from Marcus saying "From the both of us, our thanks and friendship." To not make it Catherine after comments like that is unnessecarly cruel, and I can't see JMS going down that path.

          Regardless, if the previous JMS comment I posted dosen't pretty much kill the "Was it Sakai question", I'd think this one would put a bit of a larger hole into the argument...

          Sakai Query
          04/17/1998 01:26 PM
          (blocked) asks:
          > at the end was Sinclair referring to Catherine Sakai?
          > And if so did she arrive before or after he did?
          > CT, so what else is new?

          She arrived after.

          jms

          Which follows through with Valen's comment in the comic, which dosen't occur until well after much of the Shadow War is over.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Anders
            Couldn't "I found her" mean that he had found "her" the love of his life. It could be a new woman, not necessarily an old one.
            Maybe it could mean "I found the ship". Perhaps he was out looking for the mysterious, mythical Minbari warship Blue Starlet (or whatever ).

            Or maybe it was Carolyn Sykes? (only seen in The Gathering). While searching for her name I just saw that JMS claims that she is not the same character as Catherine Sakai played by a new actor, but I'm not man enough to tell them apart (except by looking at them!). They seem very similar to me and even have the same initials, and fairly similar names.

            //iamsheridan
            Interstellar Alliance - Sweden's largest Babylon 5-club
            http://www.babcon.org/

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            • #21
              Again, the above posts pretty much show it was Catherine. As for Carolyn, I can't remember off-hand if it was decided she didn't work or if the actress decided not to return, but Sakai was definetly a different character, with a hell of a lot stronger connection to Sinclair. Carolyn was more like a women he was with for awhile... Sakai was someone he spent the majority of his adult life chasing, losing, hating and loving, thus being on a much higher level.

              Plus, to be blunt, she was significantly better looking

              Comment


              • #22
                Kevin:

                What can I say? "Whoops" Of the thousands of JMS messages that I've read over the years and the dozens I've exchanged with him on various topics, I somehow missed that one. I didn't do a search of the archives because I thought I was already familiar with pretty much everything he had said on the subject. Hence my strong statement. Obviously, I was wrong. Mea culpa.

                OTOH, I stand by some of my other comments. While I think it is clear that Sakai and Valen were reunited in the past, and that she became the mother of his children, nothing except that single message says so explicitly. JMS has delighted in dancing around this issue, I think because it is one of those things in the story that he hasn't worked out in final form to his own satisfaction, and that he'll leave it that way until and unless he has a chance to actually tell that story. (A Rangers series, for instance, would have offered the opportunity to do flashback stories about the history of the Rangers and allowed JMS to explore more of the backstory than the more linear B5.)

                As for interbreeding - JMS did say several times that species with compatible plumbming can have sex, but that species cannot actually interbreed without considerable outside intervention. It is clear that Delenn's reproductive system underwent a complete overhaul, and that despite her (diminished) bonecrest that she is mostly human. Her son David is completely Human according to the Centauri trilogy. So I don't see how Catherine could have been the mother of Valen's children without undergoing a change.

                It's either their ignorance or they don't care...but you're correct, in the B5 universe you can't have two races interbreeding just like that. (In fact, I seem to recall pointing this out in my notes on the manuscript; odd that it hasn't been attended to, from what you're saying. I can only assume that it slipped between the cracks.)

                jms 03/21/1996 03:08 PM

                Re: G'Kar and Lyta, two things: 1) It's got nothing to do with romance, strictly genetic business, and 2) what's not in the CFQ quote from the script is the section where G'Kar mentions the need to alter the genetic structure to make any offspring possible. "We still have to merge your genes with our own," he says. Left alone, such mating is about as likely as a fish mating with a bicycle to produce a walrus. But if the person(s) involved were willing to go through *major* genetic restructuring, or be cloned and allow *that* to be restructured, then it's possible, though still chancy at best.

                Mixed species offspring are nearly unheard of in the B5 universe.

                Jms 12/10/1992 07:25 PM

                Q: how *would* a human and a Narn mate, anyway?

                A: Well, as G'Kar said in the pilot, there would have to be rather substantial genetic manipulation and adjustment to allow for the different DNA structures to mix.

                After that, it would require the usual: dinner, flowers, and
                being willing to sit through a chick-flick....

                Jms 06/06/1998 02:27 PM

                No, the First Ones, Vorlons and Shadows aren't parents in any sense of the word...we all evolved on our own, there's no common genetics, and they didn't seed life here or elsewhere.

                Jms 09/24/1996 05:49 PM

                Q: Joe, Silly question probably but, is Minbari sexual physiology completely compatible with human physiology?

                A: No, not under normal circumstances; it'd have to undergo some fairly extensive genetic modifications before that could happen.

                Jms 03/31/1996 06:04 AM

                I covered the aspect of genetic engineering in the course of G'Kar's conversation with Lyta. He said he could clone her, "...but we'd STILL have to alter its genetic structure," same as with anything she would do. And, frankly, he was more just trying to get laid than anything else.

                Jms 03/31/1996 06:04 AM

                That's Mira's hair, yes...and barring genetic engineering or alteration, reproduction between varying species is not possible in the B5 universe.

                Jms 11/18/1994 12:57 AM

                Casual mating between species *cannot* take place accidentally in the B5 universe. There would have to be *massive* genetic engineering on someone to make it even remotely possible.

                Jms 03/17/1994 03:19 PM

                As I've noted elsewhere, G'Kar made mention of the need for genetic alteration/modification during the scene with Lyta. Beyond that, though, G'Kar's personal perversion is sex with humans, which no one else seems quite able to understand....

                Jms 12/23/1993 10:57 AM

                Hybrids are impossible in the B5 universe without direct genetic alteration. You can't just have casual mating. Interspecies sex may present opportunities for exploration, but the chances of a Narn impregnating a human are about the same as a human impregnating a fish and producing a motorcycle.

                jms 12/20/1993 03:48 PM
                Well, I think you get the idea. With all of those message stressing the impossibility of interspecies breeding without substantial genetic intervention I think it is fairly clear why I assumed that a fully-human Cathering Sakai and a essentially Minbari Valen could never reproduce, and that JMS would never have said they could. In doing so in that single post he probably contradicted a couple of hunderd other posts. I personally suspect that what he had in mind is that Sakai did not take on a totally Minbair appearance, rather than that she remained 100% Human.

                Regards,

                Joe
                Joseph DeMartino
                Sigh Corps
                Pat Tallman Division

                Comment


                • #23
                  Joe: No worries, I know you're probably used to dealing with people just making random broad assumptions, so it's no big deal ;-)

                  As for the rest, I do agree. I really don't think JMS has it all worked out yet, and there's certainly a great deal of evidence to suggest Catherine isn't part of the line of the Children of Valen. All the messages certainly paint contradicting views if one is to assume that she is. But, as always in the Babylon 5 world, I imagine nothing is as it seems...

                  Anyways, of all the possible stories still out there, I think there'd be great interest in this one, to be honest. I know "To Dream in a City of Sorrows" is one of everyone's favourites in the B5 books, mostly cause Sinclair is quite the enjoyable character to read about, and while the majority of the public probably isn't ready for a movie or project not centered around humans, it'd certainly be nice to see a novel or two about the subject of Valen.

                  Now how likely it is for another B5 book to be published... that's an entierly different question ;P

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino


                    Valen still has the Chrysalis device with him, so there is no reason that he can't use it to transform Sakai.
                    The 'Triluminaries' were specifically designed on Epsilon 3 to be used by Sinclair only. They were engineered to match his DNA. Thats why they glowed when held near him. They would not work on anyone else except those that shared his DNA. ( his offspring )

                    Thats how they know that Delenn is a child of Valen because the Triluminaries glowed for her too. Thats why Dukat chose her to be his replacement. Thats why she went through the transformation because she was the only one that could.

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                    • #25
                      The 'Triluminaries' were specifically designed on Epsilon 3 to be used by Sinclair only.

                      Really? And you know this how?


                      They were engineered to match his DNA. Thats why they glowed when held near him. They would not work on anyone else except those that shared his DNA. (his offspring )

                      Those who share his DNA include his Minbari descendents (who would have only a fragment of Human DNA) and virtually the entire Human race - who share a hell of a lot more DNA with Jeffery Sinclair than Delenn or any other Minbari does.

                      In S2 Lennier tells Sheridan that the Grey Council confirmed that Human souls were being reborn in whole or in part in Human bodies by testing other Human pilots with the triluminaries after they saw what happened with Sinclair. One of the Council members says the same thing during the Battle of the Line in In the Beginning.

                      While it is true that DNA fingerprinting can make incredibly fine distinctions between Humans, it does this by looking at a tiny fraction of all the DNA data - because 99% of DNA is identical in all Human beings.

                      That's how they know that Delenn is a child of Valen because the Triluminaries glowed for her too. Thats why Dukat chose her to be his replacement. Thats why she went through the transformation because she was the only one that could.

                      Again, this assumes facts not in evidence. Even allowing that, it is still wrong. It may be the case that the Chrysalis transformation will only work for people who have some DNA in common with Sinclair. As noted, that includes pretty much the whole Human race. It also includes a hell of a lot of Minbari. As we learn from "Atonement" the number of Minbari who have some of Valen's DNA is "beyond counting". Any one of them could have undergone the Chrysalis transformation. It is likely that "Children of Valen" rarely get onto the Grey Council, because that is a small group and even millions of Children of Valen would be a drop in the total Minbari population. So the glowing Triluminary wouldn't come up very often. But it obviously wasn't unprecendented in Delenn's case or Dukhat would not have expected it.

                      Your argument is based on assumptions, and your assumptions are contradicted by what we know about genetics and by what is clearly said in the show.

                      Regards,

                      Joe
                      Joseph DeMartino
                      Sigh Corps
                      Pat Tallman Division

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino

                        While it is true that DNA fingerprinting can make incredibly fine distinctions between Humans, it does this by looking at a tiny fraction of all the DNA data - because 99% of DNA is identical in all Human beings.
                        I would have thought a device this sophisticated could tell the difference between individual humans. Even if the difference was only 1% ( We are talking about a fictional alien device. This surely would be more advanced than our current level of understanding with regards to DNA fingerprinting. ) Perhaps it worked on more than just DNA. Some kind of genetic code similar to what twins share or clones. But you're absolutely right its only assumption.

                        Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino


                        In S2 Lennier tells Sheridan that the Grey Council confirmed that Human souls were being reborn in whole or in part in Human bodies by testing other Human pilots with the triluminaries after they saw what happened with Sinclair. One of the Council members says the same thing during the Battle of the Line in In the Beginning.
                        I always took this as a red herring. It was as much as they dared to tell anyone else but not the whole truth. The grey council knew the rest but feared telling anyone incase history was altered somehow and Valen did not go back. I'm reminded of the white star footage from the last great war. They obviously knew most of what was going to happen but elaborated this 'souls being reborn' story to hide the truth about Valen from their own people as well as Sherriden amoung others.
                        It is, after all, easier when you make up a story to have an element of truth in it. Also if it was true and they did do testing on other Humans, why was Sinclair so special to them and why did they insist on him running B5. I think it was their little government cover up story.

                        Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino


                        It also includes a hell of a lot of Minbari. As we learn from "Atonement" the number of Minbari who have some of Valen's DNA is "beyond counting". Any one of them could have undergone the Chrysalis transformation.
                        Again you are totally correct except the Triluminaries were holy relics. Normal Minbari would not have access to them, maybe not even know about Children of Valen. We know lots of other information was kept from them. In any case Delenn was the only one in a position to be transformed as she was the only one with direct access to the triluminaries. In fact she, herself only got access because another member of the grey council sneaked one away and gave it to her.

                        Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino

                        But it obviously wasn't unprecendented in Delenn's case or Dukhat would not have expected it.
                        Personally I take Dukhat's wisdom with a pinch of salt. He was, after all, being led by two Vorlons. It was the Vorlons that were feeding his curiosity about the Humans. Most likely it was the Vorlons that pointed out Delenn to him. They knew all about Sinclair long before the story begins.

                        Remember Kosh's first words to Sinclair from The Gathering: " Entil Za Valen" ( sorry about spelling ) I think Dukhat only expected it because he was told to expect it. For all we know, this was the first time the idea of 'Children of Valen' had been brought to light.

                        For fear of starting another war of words, this is all just my humble opinion.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Genetic Wonder

                          About the comic synopsis and Valen's note addressing Catherine and then saying "I've found her": It may be a production error. If it isn't then I think it's quite logical that Valen wasn't direct. "Dear Catherine, if you read this in the future let me reassure you that I'll find you in the end after losing you in time."
                          Or, OK, maybe he would know that Catherine never found that message (she would have told her if he found her, no?), but he didn't know all about the future so he would have preferred to leave it ambiguous enough so that only his close friends would know who he talks about if they found the message.
                          Others, like us, would just have to speculate endlessly.


                          Perhaps it worked on more than just DNA. Some kind of genetic code similar to what twins share or clones.
                          Twins share all of their DNA, clones have by definition the same nucleic DNA. The only extranuclear DNA is that of the mitochondria, it comes only from the mothers eggs. A clone may differ from the original if the donor egg is not from his maternal line.
                          There's no other genetic code in humans or any other mammals for that matter (plant chloroplasts, like mitochondria have their own DNA, BTW). All the required information to make a human is in the nuclear DNA, postulating some "genetic code" that is not DNA doesn't make sense to me. Can you be more specific about what are you speculating?

                          I can agree that the triluminary may work in connection to a very specific fraction of the DNA.
                          But I don't think it can really tell the difference between individuals so easily. To tell the difference it would need to sequence all the genes of a person and compare it to that of other persons and be doing that constantly, storing each and every genetic profile to compare it to others.

                          The triluminary would have to do a lot of work in changing and adding and/or removing genes. It could co-opt the human bone genes, but would have to force them to express into a structure not included in human genes to make Sinclair look Minbari.
                          And according to the quote above (thanks JoeDeM), his physiology, sexual organs included, would have to change significantly too.

                          The triluminaries may well be the most advanced gene synthesizer and splicer in the universe, not only that, but a perfect and undecaying information storage system (to contain the required genetic codes) and analyzer and detector of DNA and other chemical substances (to find and change specific genes), it may even include a protein sequencer and protein synthesizer to create any extra enzimes required to make such modifications.
                          Oh, and also a web maker for the cocoons.
                          That really is an advanced device, so advanced that it can look like a random collection of colored cristals and a bit of metal frames and wires and still work wonders.
                          Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                          James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                          • #28
                            Here's something we can all agree on: It'd sure be nice to have a book or a movie to answer all this for us

                            With the exception of the Telepath War, I think the story of Valen is really only one of the "big" stories left to tell, mostly because it deals with the life of one of the more influential members of the B5 story. And as for the trilumanary, Sakai, and the rest... we really can't say. There's enough evidence to support and contradict and stance you'd like to take on it, which is why I do hope we'll one day be graced by a story to tell of what happened.

                            What I do know is Sakai does show up. There is a scandal involved. The Minbari do claim Sinclair wasn't the only one the trilumanary accepted. And Valen has children, although Sakai wasn't human nor does the idea of interspecies mating look rather practical on paper.

                            That being said, the best part about B5 was always the complex mysteries that never seemed to make any sense, but always did in the end

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I don't think Michael O'Hare will go for it....one thing we are trying to avoid,Babylon 5 came just at the right time,there were no sci-fi tv shows beside star trek so when B5 came it blew us all away in term of story and special effects.
                              If JMS will make a new show in the B5 universe it has to be something new and refreshing,otherwise people will not fall for it (talking about regular people,not us B5 nuts).
                              But i do agree that the Sinclair/Valen is a very interesting story,would be great to see it in a telemovie version like iTB,RoS...
                              Sleeping in Light-----Darnit! Shut the Window.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                For fear of starting another war of words, this is all just my humble opinion.
                                1) There isn't any "war". This is called a "discussion", perhaps an "argument" in the philosophical, rather than the interpersonal and nasty, sense. Ideas are put forth, they are challenged and defended. Facts are marshalled on various sides to butress positions. Logic is applied. In the end, truth may be revealed or a consensus reached. If you don't know there is a difference between a war of words and a discussion, you're going to have problems in life.

                                2) I am not interested in anything that is "just [somebody's] opinion" much less somebody's humble opinion. If you're that uncertain about what you're saying, do everyone a favor and keep it to yourself. My opinion is not humble, not "mere", and is certainly not wrong. If I didn't believe my opinion to be true it wouldn't be my opinion and I wouldn't waste everybody's time by offering it. I only offer my opinion after due consideration and in the belief that it is the nearest approximation of the truth we are likely to arrive at. If I'm proven wrong (by fact or superior argument) - I change my opinion. But short of that I will defend my opinion and I expect others to do the same.

                                I would have thought a device this sophisticated could tell the difference between individual humans.

                                Why? As far as we know that thing was never designed to detect DNA at all, much less Human DNA. Why would a device created by one alien race and used by another have such a setting or a purpose, distinguishing between the DNA of individual Humans? The most likely theory is that the triluminaries were calibrated off Sinclair, and thus became attuned to Human DNA. The glow is a side effect. The Minbari who scanned Sinclair were not looking for DNA. They weren't even looking for a Minbari soul - which is what they thought they had when they saw the glow.

                                Even if the difference was only 1% ( We are talking about a fictional alien device. This surely would be more advanced than our current level of understanding with regards to DNA fingerprinting. )

                                Again, why? There is no evidence that the triluminary is a DNA detector by design at all, so why should we think it is an unusally good one?

                                Perhaps it worked on more than just DNA. Some kind of genetic code similar to what twins share or clones. But you're absolutely right its only assumption.

                                The genetic code that twins and clones share is DNA. And assumptions have to have a reason for being. If I see you go into the bathroom and hear the shower running, don't see you leave the room, then later enter it and find the window open, and a trail of water from the shower stall to the open window and wet ground below it, I would be justified in assuming that you jumped out of the window. (Although I may still be wrong; you could have laid a false trail and hidden in the linen closet.) But if the window is closed and there is no trail of water, I would have no basis for making such an assumption.

                                I don't think you've established a basis for some of the assumptions you are making about the triluminaries.


                                I always took this [Lennier's explanation of the declining Minbari population and the rebirth of Minbari souls as Humans] as a red herring.

                                OK, now we're getting into the silly area. If you're going to assume that everything in the show is a "red herring" than anything could be true and we can never understand anything that happens on screen - because it could all be an elaborate lie created by JMS.

                                Look, even if Lennier had a reason to lie, why would a member of the Grey Council lie to Delenn during the Battle of the Line? He told her the same thing, that multiple Human pilots had been tested, the entire Council believed that Sinclair and the others had Minbari souls (only a few believe Sinclair to be Valen reborn, but they still thought him Minbari) that's why they ended the war.

                                It was as much as they dared to tell anyone else but not the whole truth. The grey council knew the rest but feared telling anyone incase history was altered somehow and Valen did not go back.

                                No, the Grey Council did not know. They knew nothing about Sinclair, Valen and time travel until after "War Without End" That is clearly and repeatedly established in throughout the first four seasons of the show.

                                They obviously knew most of what was going to happen but elaborated this 'souls being reborn' story to hide the truth

                                Again, wrong. Simply, factually, based on everything we're actually told and shown on-screen wrong. And therefore everything that flows from this mistaken assumption is equally wrong. The Minbari know essentially nothing about the last Great War. Only a few fragmented records remain. And that wasn't only because of the War. Valen himself knew the danger of polluting the timei stream. That's why there are no likenesses of Valen taken in his lifetime, no photographs, no busts. The only statues that exist of him have an almost blank face, the features merely sketched in. Valen made sure that few records survived the war, and those that did would not be "found" until the right time. How do you think Delenn got the White Star footage? She herself says it has only recently been "found" and that she has just seen it for the first time herself. It was "found" because one of Valen's letters from the past told Sinclair where to find it and he got it to Delenn.

                                Also if it was true and they did do testing on other Humans, why was Sinclair so special to them and why did they insist on him running B5. I think it was their little government cover up story.

                                This is all answered in the show, you realize. They tested the other Humans because for 2,000 years they had seen their population decline, and believed their souls (and their greater souls for the last 1,000) were being reborn into some other species. When the triluminary glowed for Sinclair they thought he had a Minbari soul for certain, probably a great soul. This meant that other Humans might also have Minbari souls - and if that were true, they were violating their most sacred law - Minbari do not kill Minbari. They had to check the other Humans to see if Sinclair was a fluke, and to know if they would have to stop the war because the Humans (or some of them) had Minbari souls. They kept tabs on Sinclair and insisted on him as commander of B5 because some on the Council, and especially the Religious caste, were convinced that he was Valen reincarnated and that prophecy was being fulfilled - because prophecy did say that Valen would one day return.

                                [cont.]
                                Joseph DeMartino
                                Sigh Corps
                                Pat Tallman Division

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