Crusade failure

[Sigma]

I'm not sure I remember what JMS said about liking/not liking the grey uniforms but he did ensure that there'd be a horrible accident in the laundry with them so that he could explain more black uniform episodes.

it was in one of the unproduced scripts

[Night Marshal]

The black uniforms were the ones most meddled with by TNT, then TNT insisted on Racing the Night being made with the new uniforms causing those episodes to be shown first.

I'm not sure I remember what JMS said about liking/not liking the grey uniforms but he did ensure that there'd be a horrible accident in the laundry with them so that he could explain more black uniform episodes.

What a cluster-fsock!

Jan

JMS has said he didn't really like the original Uniforms and welcomed the chance to change them. I think the part he didn't like was changing the story because of the Black ones.


However I would like to add that any mendling seems to Drive JMS crazy anymore. Mendling is part of the TV and I think that JMS was in this way become very inflexable since Babylon 5 Hence no more B5, and the very little TV work. At least in terms of stuff that has come to air.

[Jan]

However I would like to add that any mendling seems to Drive JMS crazy anymore. Mendling is part of the TV and I think that JMS was in this way become very inflexable since Babylon 5 Hence no more B5, and the very little TV work. At least in terms of stuff that has come to air.

I guess that depends on what you would consider acceptable when it comes to meddling. If you ran an accounting firm and an upper executive told one of your assistants "I don't care if the next person you hire can add or subtract as long as she's a hottie." would you find that acceptable meddling in your responsibilities? In this post JMS reports that his casting director was told essentially that same thing on Jeremiah (which was also a breach of protocol). He related a similar story at the Wizard con in Philadelphia this year:

One person kept sending up young ladies to use in the show who could not act. I said to another producer, ôWhy do they keep sending them up?ö And of course my other producer said, ôThereÆs a reason why theyÆre coming up here.ö [along with a hand gesture] ôOoooohhhàö And I
had a showdown with said executive and said, ôMy job is to make the show, not to be your pimp.ö That was the start of the conversation. It kinda went downhill from there.

Of course, all we have is one side of things but it sounds to me like the kind of inflexibility I would have to agree with. What would Jeremiah have been like with some untalented bimbo in the second season instead of Sean Astin as Mr. Smith?

Jan

[Night Marshal]

I guess that depends on what you would consider acceptable when it comes to meddling. If you ran an accounting firm and an upper executive told one of your assistants "I don't care if the next person you hire can add or subtract as long as she's a hottie." would you find that acceptable meddling in your responsibilities? In this post JMS reports that his casting director was told essentially that same thing on Jeremiah (which was also a breach of protocol). He related a similar story at the Wizard con in Philadelphia this year:



Of course, all we have is one side of things but it sounds to me like the kind of inflexibility I would have to agree with. What would Jeremiah have been like with some untalented bimbo in the second season instead of Sean Astin as Mr. Smith?

Jan

Haha I remember reading that. But I would also add that Hollywood might be the shallowest place on earth (Maybe Las Vegas but Hollywood is at least second). So sadly these things happen. And I think that is why he thrown himself so completely into comic books. Marvel lets JMS basically do what ever he wants. And when your 50 some years old and have more all the money you could want. You stop doing things that stress you out and only do things that you enjoy.

I really hope this show that he has been talking about come to TV. I miss his stories and we need more quality writers working on shows, and you know if JMS is a the Show Runner he will have the best writers he can find.

[NotKosh]

I didn't like Crusade because it got cancelled

[Lope de Aguirre]

I didn't like Crusade because it got cancelled

[NotKosh]

Its called sarcasm.

[spikey thing]

Meddling aside, The SFX were kinda crappy, but the story was showing great potential.

[moelawn]

Order of Episodes

"Racing the Night" was a strong first episode - and the first episode supposed to be it was (sorry just watched SW Ep III for the first time); But since it was filmed after the uniform change it could not be broadcast first.

The change in the uniforms of the Excalibur crew caused an episode in which the temporary antidote to the Drakh plague was to be deployed, to precede the episode in which the antidote was discovered.

That was a mess, and it was not right for TNT to force the change at the point it happened. You wait until the you can work the change into the story line. The uniforms weren't that bad. The pajamas the crew had to wear in the first Star Trek film were way worse and that was a Hollywood feature.

I guess WB's giving its TNT partners the first crack at Crusade (and the ability to mess it up) was as inevitable as the explosion off the transfer point at Io.

Still I am greatful for there having been a Year 5 for B5, and for them running the daily episodes - which allowed my son to catch up.

It is an imperfect world.

__________________________________________________ _

"An artist is a bloke who can hold two fundamentally opposing views and still function...."Roy Bland to George Smiley in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy (1974) (paraphrasing F. Scott Fitzgerald).

[therichieboy]

The Star Trek uniforms in Motion Picture gave me an unpleasent insight as to how William Shatner might have looked as baby in his first crib costume. All the costumes dept. had to do was sow a big blue flanellette bunny rabbit onto the front to complete the nightmare image.

[Laiden]

I didn't like Crusade because it got cancelled

[Technomage-Galen]

However I would like to add that any mendling seems to Drive JMS crazy anymore. Mendling is part of the TV and I think that JMS was in this way become very inflexable since Babylon 5 Hence no more B5, and the very little TV work. At least in terms of stuff that has come to air.

Night Marshal

I tend to agree with you. VERY few people in the movie industry have earned the right to be left alone and make movies/TV as they please. People such as George Lucas, Steven Spielberg and James Cameron are people that come to mind on this very very short list.

Although we love B5 and the potential stories that universe has to offer, the show was not the rating juggernaut that would give JMS the kind of freedom that he (and we as avid fans) feels he is entitled to. In my opinion, JMS is a great writer and could tell a good story even with network meddling. But, his unwillingness to appease the people writing the checks probably means no more B5 stories ever. With two failed TV series under his belt, it would not surprise me if he has earned the "difficult" tag.

Finally, I'm not sure why a writer of his caliber is content to write comic books. I'm not a comic book expert, and I haven't picked one up in over 25 years. I just can't imagine it's as rewarding as telling stories from your own creation. JMS spent about five years trying to get the original B5 on the air. I just wish he would exhibit that same tenacity today.

[Jan]

Finally, I'm not sure why a writer of his caliber is content to write comic books. I'm not a comic book expert, and I haven't picked one up in over 25 years. I just can't imagine it's as rewarding as telling stories from your own creation.

Hi, Technomage-Galen, and welcome.

I think it's partly because he *likes* comic books. And his creator-owned titles are *very* worthwhile, believe me.

JMS spent about five years trying to get the original B5 on the air. I just wish he would exhibit that same tenacity today.

I'm not sure, are you talking about his trying to get more B5 on the air? Won't happen. He's said repeatedly that he's open to any ideas that come to him with the money and wherewithal to make it happen. He's told the main story that he wanted to, though, and won't be going out knocking on doors to do more B5.

If you meant that he should be doing TV in general, he's already gone to work on the latest series he's show-running and the first script is due later this month. He reports that other writers have been put to work also.

In addition, he's had at least one other show premise bought and will be taking it out come the June development season.

Don't scoff at his comic work though, till you've tried it. Do yourself a favor and pick up the "Midnight Nation" trade paperback. If you can come back and tell me that it's not just a killer story, I'll be *very* surprised!

Jan
-not about to go into the 'he should just accept story notes' debate again.

[Joe Nazzaro]

I suspect Joe is writing comic books because A) he loves comic books, B) Marvel has given him the opportunity to write some fun stuff, and C) the money for top-selling comic books is not as bad as it once was.

Having said that, I think it's a bit unfair to pillory him just because we haven't seen any big television projects. Many Hollywood writers can go years if not their entire career without selling a major series, let alone getting to run one. I could name half a dozen projects that Joe was going to be connected with, that never came off for any number of reasons. And for every one of those projects, there are probably months of wasted work.

And just because we were fortunate enough to see five consecutive seasons of B5, you can't discount the years of development and trying to get the project off the ground before 'The Gathering' ever aired.

[white_star25]

The TV over here in Greece never showed Crusade (it got as far as season 4 of B5), and I was reluctant to buy the DVDs from the US or UK. Fortunately though, the DVDs made it to the Greek market also and from there to the dvd-store from where I rent. I think I must be the only person in this forum to have gotten her first glimpse of Crusade just a week ago!

I rented the first disc first, where, apart from "The Well of Forever", the other episodes had a "disjoint" feeling to them. They weren't bad, but they weren't great either. As I got the rest of the discs and slowly took in the whole picture (and learned that the order of the episodes in the dvds is not the correct viewing order), I realized that, flaws aside, Crusade had a very interesting promise to it. Those 13 episodes were pieces of a puzzle that never got completed. They gave me the feeling that the first season of B5 had given me, the hints, the mystery, the approaching danger, the "signs and portents". The cast did a nice job, with Galen/Peter Woodward quickly becoming a favorite ("I have no surviving enemies", LOL!). When the end credits of the last episode rolled, I felt like I had taken my first bite of a delicious meal but someone yanked the rest of the plates away! I had arrived at a formal 5-course dinner, tasted an appetizer, but suddenly the whole dinner was cancelled! And I *like* formal dinners!

The only things that made me frown were two things that JMS said in the commentary.
1. In the end of season 1 Captain Gideon would die or be presumed dead and then come back to life.
2. Something would happen and the Excalibur would become a rogue ship, some kind of fight with Earth.
Uh... is it me or do the above sound familiar? They sound B5-ish to me. I understand that every writer has his/her style, but to repeat story plots... Oh well, there's no point in wondering, since we'll simply never know now, will we?

Bottom line, Crusade had potential. It did. It just needed time and, well, money. Pity it wasn't given either. I'll miss it.



PS. The only way to get an idea of what future Crusade episodes might tell is to read the "Passing of the Techno-mages" trilogy books. I've done a quick read of the first book so far and it explains a lot about Galen, the Shadows, the Drakh and more. It made me wonder about the true nature of Gideon's "Box of Apocalypse" and what things it might cause.