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**Joseph DeMartino** · 01-01-2004, 07:38 AM

Babylon 5 is not coming back. Ever. Period.

It was a five year story and that story has been told. JMS could have done B5 S6, or he could have done B5: The Next Generation. (And reminded us of that fact in the farewell shot of the new station crew in "Objects at Rest") He had offers to do one or the other; he turned them down.

Whatever the new project is (and he's already said that it will not be a series) will be another set story in the Babylon 5 universe. But it will not be B5 itself.

G'kar gone - I think he left with Lyta ( been a long time since I saw series 5 )

G'Kar and Lyta are only gone for two years, then they return in time for the only major untold story that could involve most of the original cast - The Telepath War. G'Kar was also in Legend of the Rangers, which takes place shortly after the Teep War ends.

(BTW, if it is a feature film, figure on the original cast being in it. JMS has always said that he viewed the bigger payday that a feature film represents as a reward for all the hard work the actors - and crew members - did on TV salaries for five years. And it is obvious that he has avoided telling the Teep War story, having the novelists write around it and only hinting at the details in Crusade the Rangers pilot and the short stories.)

Movies based on TV shows basically take two forms: Those produced during the life of the series or within a reasonable number of years feature the original cast, because that's what will draw the fans. Those produced 20 years or more out, when the original cast is too old to play their characters as they were, get "reinvented" with new actors and often major plot changes. That's life. But I think B5 is still in the former category. We'll just have to wait and see.

Regards,

Joe

**Vir** · 01-01-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
[B]
Whatever the new project is (and he's already said that it will not be a series) will be another set story in the Babylon 5 universe. But it will not be B5 itself.

Well this concearns me even more. He's tried it already with Legend of the Rangers and it just didn't work. The more I think about it what else can you base it around story wise ?

If it is going to be a film, I cant think of anything that would work as a stand alone story idea. ( bearing in mind that it would have to appeal to non B5 fans as well )

On paper I would have said that the Rangers were his best bet of a spin off story line but I'm sure that idea is now put to bed after Legend did not do well.

The only other thing I can think of is an EA crew on a ship, but thats going down the same road as Crusade. Maybe Ivanova's new command - that would be cool.

Either way it sounds like Babylon 5 is truely dead and this next project sounds more like a goodbye to the whole thing. Whatever it is I'm sure, sadly, this will be the last.

**Ranger1** · 01-01-2004, 12:42 PM

A story is never dead

**Joseph DeMartino** · 01-01-2004, 01:54 PM

He's tried it already with Legend of the Rangers and it just didn't work.

Rangers was a better pilot than The Gathering in many respects, and showed real potential despite problems introduced by a very restricted budget, SFC and WB's refusal to come up with more money when the planned weapons system proved more expensive to build than anticipated (resulting in the last-minute improvisation that appeared in the film) and if WB's loss of all the original B5/Crusade CGI source files. If WB had been willing to share ownership of the series with SFC and USA Networks a series would almost certainly have been authorized.

The more I think about it what else can you base it around story wise ?

Er, did you read my last post?

If it is going to be a film, I cant think of anything that would work as a stand alone story idea. ( bearing in mind that it would have to appeal to non B5 fans as well )

Well, luckily for us JMS is in charge of thinking of something for the next story, not you. The outline he submitted when Warner Bros. was interested in a B5 feature film in 1999 was based on the Telepath War, which is one reason why I discussed the many reasons this would be a good idea in my last post. To recapitulate: It is a stand-alone story, would appeal to non-fans (think X-Men, teeps are mutants, easy sell, you don't have to know the whole history of the show.) It could involve most of the original cast. It would resolve the stories of two regular characters whose fates are not shown in the course of the series.

On paper I would have said that the Rangers were his best bet of a spin off story line but I'm sure that idea is now put to bed after Legend did not do well.

Again, JMS is not talking about a series. Rangers was designed as a series with a long-term arc, not something that could easily be resolved in a feature film or a TV movie or mini. Nor would a Rangers project likely involve enough of the original cast. But JMS has not forgotten Rangers. He mentioned the possibility of doing a Rangers/B5/Crusade cross-over in a graphic novel some day.

The only other thing I can think of is an EA crew on a ship, but thats going down the same road as Crusade. Maybe Ivanova's new command - that would be cool.

You still seem fixated on the idea of a series - which is NOT in the cards. And again, we are fortunate that the limitations of your imagination are unlikely to be a problem for JMS. Why don't you stop worrying and let him do the hevy thinking?

Either way it sounds like Babylon 5 is truely dead and this next project sounds more like a goodbye to the whole thing. Whatever it is I'm sure, sadly, this will be the last.

1) B5 isn't dead. It is finished. There is a difference. The Lord of the Rings isn't "dead" because we didn't get 16 sequels about Sam, Merry and Pippin. The story is complete, and it lives on. The B5 story is also complete.

2) How do you make the leap from "the main B5 story is over" (or 'dead' in your words) to the absurdity of "this is more like a good-bye" and "sadly, this will be the last"? There are still other stories to be told. Witness the novels and the short stories.

For one thing, JMS said in September that he was in talks for two projects set in the B5 universe. So even if the one he's writing now doesn't sell, there may still be another. And there may be others beyond that, given how well the DVDs are doing.

Man I love SF fans. They're like manic-depressives. Either everything is perfect (from their point of view), e.g, "There's going to be a new series" or the world is coming to an end, "This is good-bye. It's all over. There will never be any more". There's no in between.

And 99% of the time it is all speculation anyway, based on scraps of information. How the hell does anyone go from JMS saying "One of the projects has reached the money and writing stage, can't really say more yet but it isn't a publishing project and it isn't a TV series" to "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" ?

Sheesh!

Joe

**Vir** · 01-01-2004, 02:25 PM

If it wasn't for die hard fans like myself, Babylon 5 would have dissapeared long before it did. It certainly would never have made a fifth series because mainstraem sci-fi it was not.

Of course we want it to return desperately. I am thirty years old and grew up with Star Wars etc, and with out a doubt Babylon 5 is in a different class to anything else I've ever seen.

If you think I'm bitter and sound like a manic depressive then what do you expect. - Babylon 5 finished. We all know that. We all thought that was the end. Then along comes Crusade and we were jumping for joy that the saga would continue. Then, before we knew what was going on it stopped after one season.

Frankly I feel let down.
Not by JMS of course but by the powers that be. Maybe I'm bitter about some bloke sitting behind a desk, that knows nothing about sci-fi, making decisions that would bring one of the newest, and most unique franchises to its knees.

To be honest I thought this forum was all about fans getting together and shooting the breeze. To be able to discuss and enjoy each others ideas and points of view. It appears I was wrong. I'll leave you to your preaching.

**JackBauer** · 01-01-2004, 09:22 PM

Lucky for you Vir your not a Farscape fan. that was an absolutly amasing series cancelled by a pencil head behind a desk. But now its getting a chance to finish itself. I agree with Joe. B5 is finished, not dead. The story of b5 started and it finished. Anything we get now is a bonus we should be thankful for. We should be thankful for JMS's dedication to this universe.

**Vir** · 01-02-2004, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by JackBauer
Lucky for you Vir your not a Farscape fan. that was an absolutly amasing series cancelled by a pencil head behind a desk.

Actually I am a fan. I thought it was amazing as well. It was like sci-fi on acid. Very cool.

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
You still seem fixated on the idea of a series - which is NOT in the cards. And again, we are fortunate that the limitations of your imagination are unlikely to be a problem for JMS. Why don't you stop worrying and let him do the hevy thinking?

What ? Are you Minbari or something ? As a writer myself I can tell you that the main reason that Babylon 5 did so well and still, does well, is the writing of the story lines. This particular style of writing and slow plot building can only work properly in a series. Thats why JMS has tried twice to bring back new series within the B5 universe. The films themselves were designed to be companions to the main tv series and as such would not, and did not, do well as stand alone films. ( they were targeted more for the fans to flesh out some of the main story threads )

When season 5 finished everybody said that was the end. Then along came Crusade. Then when that finished people said it was the end, and along came Legends. I would say we are fortunate that the limitations of YOUR imagination are unlikely to be a problem for JMS. ( luckily for us he keeps on trying and doesn't listen to defeatists like you )

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
B5 isn't dead. It is finished. There is a difference. The Lord of the Rings isn't "dead" because we didn't get 16 sequels about Sam, Merry and Pippin. The story is complete, and it lives on. The B5 story is also complete.

What I said was: 'it sounds like Babylon 5 is truely dead'
What I was refering to was the scene in Return of the Jedi when Luke confronts Vader and says 'Then my father is truely dead'
Obviously Vader is very much alive but Luke begins to realise that he could never go back to what he was. I found myself having the same realisation about B5.

Also the Lord of the Rings was a one off book. It was written in the 1940's and obviously can never continue. Babylon 5 and its expanding universe is a tv series, by definition, it can continue for as long as JMS wants. There are no limits, and comparining it to LOTR is nonsense. Besides if you had read other work by Tolkien, eg 'The Silmarillion' or 'Unfinished Tales' you would know that he probably would have continued it. ( also bear in mind that New Line Cinema are in negotiations to get the writes to the Hobbit for their next film, so it will continue )

Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
Man I love SF fans. They're like manic-depressives. Either everything is perfect (from their point of view), e.g, "There's going to be a new series" or the world is coming to an end, "This is good-bye. It's all over. There will never be any more". There's no in between.

You say this as though your not one of us, that you don't consider yourself a sci-fi fan. If thats the case, who the hell are you and why are you posting on a fans discussion board. If I didn't know better i'd say your a spy for a network or something like TNT !!

**Lyta** · 01-02-2004, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by Vir
You say this as though your not one of us, that you don't consider yourself a sci-fi fan. If thats the case, who the hell are you and why are you posting on a fans discussion board. If I didn't know better i'd say your a spy for a network or something like TNT !!

Oh boy, this is turning into a funny thread. Maybe it is funny to me since it is late but still ... JoeDM a spy for TNT? That nearly made me choke on the tea I was drinking!

Yes, JoeDM can be a little intense and harsh at times but that's probably because he is more in tune with reality than some of the rest of us like to be.

He -usually- knows what he is talking about.

Still, I can lock him in the basement until he learns how to play nicely with others if you want? I can probably find something for him to be suitably "entertained" with. *evilgrin*

**Joseph DeMartino** · 01-02-2004, 08:15 AM

As a writer myself...

I could take this a lot more seriously if you didn't consistently write things like "truely" and "writes" where you mean "truly" and "rights".

This particular style of writing and slow plot building can only work properly in a series. Thats why JMS has tried twice to bring back new series within the B5 universe.

But he has said, very clearly, that neither of the projects that have been under discussion since September is a series. Maybe someone should call him and tell him to stop writing because B5 only works as a series. (And we can all stop asking Del Rey for that short story anthology, and everybody can stop buying the books...)

(luckily for us he keeps on trying and doesn't listen to defeatists like you )

Defeatist? Is JMS at war with somebody?

And how am I being a defeatist?

I'm not denying that there is a new project in the works.

I'm not saying that the fact that there is a new project in the works is a bad idea.

I'm not saying the I'm personally unhappy that there is a new project in the works. On the contrary, I'm delighted.

I am passing along JMS's statement that whatever he has going isn't a series, and I'm reminding everyone that - contrary to what you keep saying - Crusade and Legends were not the same thing as B5. They were their own stories, side branches from the main arc, and that one or both of the new projects may be similar side branches.

OTOH I think there's a reasonable chance for a theatrical film, possibly on the Telepath War which JMS has studiously avoided telling us very much about in any of the spin-offs, novels or short stories.

How is hoping for a theatrical movie with much of the original cast "defeatist"?

And why do you keep ignoring this possibilty while harping on the idea of a series which JMS - not me - has already rejected?

What I was refering to was the scene in Return of the Jedi

If you're going to reference obscure lines from movies, then footnote your posts.

It isn't like the words "truly dead" are unique to Jedi or that anyone is likely to make a connection between what you wrote and that film. (I'm still not sure after reading your post what connection you saw when you wrote that, but I'm not going to worry about it.)

You say this as though your not one of us, that you don't consider yourself a sci-fi fan.

I would have said "we", but I don't consider myself a part of the segment of the fan community I was mocking. (Although I suppose when I was about 12 I probably fit that profile as much as anybody.

)

Regards,

Joe

**ManInTheMiddle** · 01-02-2004, 06:33 PM

"Can't we all just...'get along'?"*

* quoted by Jack Nicholson in his portrayal of the President of the United States in "Mars Attacks"

**moelawn** · 01-04-2004, 07:24 PM

Cast worries

In reply to Vir'observation: "G'kar gone - I think he left with Lyta ( been a long time since I saw series 5 ),"

Andreas Katsulas, the fine actor who plays the role of G'Kar, in fact reprised the role in Legend of the Rangers. At one point in this story, G'Kar alludes to his trip with Lyta, from which he has returned by the time of the events in Legend.

"That grandson of yours could wreck the empire, just by strolling through it."

Tiberius to Livia, wife of Augustus, speaking of Claudius, in the BBC production of "I Claudius"

**Vir** · 01-06-2004, 06:28 AM

The whole reason I began this thread was to discuss who could be brought back from the original cast, that could be used for the new project.

( whether it is a film, tv movie or series, or mini series - that was not the point ) The point was who might be in it.

Thank you moelawn, I must admit I'd forgotten G'kar was in Legends untill joe and yourself pointed it out. Chances are that he would definately feature in any new production. I've been a fan of his since Commander Tomalok the Romulan in star trek next gen. It would not be the same without him.

BTW I know loads of writers that can't spell to save their lives. Along the same lines I know several cartoonists that can't draw at all. The skill is learning to use a certain part of your brain to be creative, not to be able to spell every word in the dictionary. ( especially in this day and age of word processors )

I don't doubt for a moment Joe that you know what your talking about and JMS is not working on a B5 tv series at the moment. I was simply pointing out that you can never say never. If the right circumstances arose, even if it was in five years time, I'm sure JMS would jump at it. Its what he does best and he knows that better than us.

Also the Jedi quote wasn't for your benefit. I only explained it to clarify.

What you must remember,Joe, is that in other countries we are a bit behind with American shows. In fact I never saw B5 at all when it was aired originally in Britain. It wasn't till years later that I was able to see it start to finish, several times over, on the sci-fi channel. For example the third season of Enterprise started last night, which I'm sure you had ages ago. We're also waiting for Battlestar Galactica which I know has begun already over there.

All I ask is that you are a little patient with us while we try and catch up with the rest of you. I come here to this site to do exactly that, but its not nice being patronised and called a 12 year old just because i'm slightly over- enthusiastic about finding B5 fans I can talk with.

**Capt.Montoya** · 01-14-2004, 04:07 PM

casting comments and worries away

I personally won't start speculating about who might be in the project without knowing what it is...
A film would be great, but I'd love to see some Crusade continuation, or more of the Legend of the Rangers, and that would be still part of the B5 universe but an entirely different set of options for cast.

BTW, I also missed the Star Wars reference so thanks for explaining it, guess I didn't hear your tone of voice or see you making the gestures that would indicate it clearly.

Or to say it without sarcasm: written communication is limited, and not all of us are hard-core fans of all filmed sci-fi. (Personally I don't like Star Trek and I've lost a lot of respect for Star Wars.)

In this day and age of word processors any writer worth his salt should know that spell and grammar checkers are not perfect and systematically commit some mistakes and miss some errors. Don't sell yourself shortly, anyone can learn to spell correctly (even with the complicated spelling of the English language), and no one should depend on machines to do it for them.

But going back to the question, even if I don't want to speculate too much:
I think Jerry Doyle would jump at the chance, he's been trying to get other B5 projects started several times... that is, unless he is too proud to accept that his previous efforts were for naught just as JMS predicted.

Andreas Katsulas willingness to reprise his G'Kar role in the Rangers pilot also bodes well for his accepting a role in the new project. I think that Peter Jurasik would also love to play Londo again.
In fact I think that all major cast member of the original series would love to play those roles again.

Thus the only thing to worry about right now is that they don't have a standing contract that prevents them from participating, and without having a start date for the new B5 project we can't really speculate much about it.

**Vir** · 01-15-2004, 07:38 AM

Re: casting comments and worries away

Originally posted by Capt.Montoya

In this day and age of word processors any writer worth his salt should know that spell and grammar checkers are not perfect and systematically commit some mistakes and miss some errors. Don't sell yourself shortly, anyone can learn to spell correctly (even with the complicated spelling of the English language), and no one should depend on machines to do it for them.

Spelling is important but not absolutely essential. Most work is proofread and spellchecked several times over at both ends. Several publishers re-type work anyway. The important thing is punctuation. ( so that your work makes sense )

I've just read a quote from JMS stating that he had such a large cast for Babylon 5, that for the films, he had to rotate the cast for each one so everyone got their fair share. Seeing who was in previous films may indicate who might be in the next one. As Joe said previously, it may well be about the telepath war but thats only the story. It has to grounded somewhere, to be based around a certain place or certain characters.

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