Changes because of O'Hare

[Jan]

Originally posted by Firebird
However, this ending would have meant a radically different Sil as Delenn would not be there, having already gone back in time with Sinclair. So who would have been there to greet the Minbari sunrise? The title suggests that the final setting of the scene (being bathed in light) would be the same, but to whom would it have applied?

I think people have an impression sometimes that the series was planned out in much more detail than it actually could have been the case.

A good example is Susan Ivanova. I think most people would agree that her mother's suicide and her estrangement from her father were pretty key to her character, especially in the first season. In the Babylon 5 Bible (May 20, 1993), though, it says in part:

Her parents are scientists working on the Io Planetary Sciences Obervatory off Jupiter. Their relationship is cordial, but cool. They were against Susan joining Earthforce, believing that her first, best destiny was science...and because they worried for her safety.

So while JMS has said that he knew the last scene from the beginning, the road there was pretty flexible. My impression was that that last scene he spoke of was actually the Station being destroyed, anyway. The scene described for Ladira's vision in 'Signs and Portents' clearly parallels the actual scene in SiL. The honor guard of ships on either side as the shuttle left the Station in SaP was described in the script but not seen in that episode, I always assumed due to time/budget constraints for the effects.

It also seemed as though Sleeping in Light might have been a second choice for title. JMS wrote:

My titles are often in a state of flux; "Signs and Portents" was originally titled "Raiding Party" in my notes, as the B5 FAQ notes somewhere. So it may change, but for the time being, in my notes for the series, the last episode of year five has this note: Title? -- "Farewell" or "Sleeping in Light."

For really big changes, though, one should compare the series Treatment (September 1, 1988) to the series bible to what ended up on the screen. Like the part about Kosh being married...

Jan

[bakana]

Even on the DVD commentaries some talk of his stage experience leaving him perhaps unprepared for the part of a show Lead.

There is also a (more or less) traditional friction between Hollywood actors and Broadway actors.
And between Movie Actors and Television actors.

Looking from the outside in, it seems to be a "my Job's Harder than His Job, so I must be a Better Actor" sort of thing.

Yet, at the same time, most actors seem to at least aspire to try out all 3 venues and most TV & Big Screen actors spend at least some percentage of their time on live stages, even if they aren't "On Broadway".

I'm not sure how often Broadway people find themselves in front of a Camera, but I suspect it's fairly often.

I've tended to ascribe some of the other cast members comments about O'Hare to having grown up in different "Neighborhoods".

[AmyG]

I'd have to disagree in large parts with all of this, bakana.

Yet, at the same time, most actors seem to at least aspire to try out all 3 venues and most TV & Big Screen actors spend at least some percentage of their time on live stages, even if they aren't "On Broadway".

This is a sweeping generalization that just isn't true. The overlap is certainly there between film and tv actors (anyone in Hollywood who's doing tv would be happy to be doing film), but not so much with theatre actors. It's a _very_ different animal, and not all actors are cut out for it. The only camera-based acting that shares quite a lot with the live stage experience is daytime drama, otherwise known as "soaps": there, you have lots of memorization required (pages and pages of dialogue, rather than a couple of lines for each take as on tv/film), and shooting is very often done chronologically. So it's much more like doing a stage play.

Many theatre actors aspire to television and film, but I would not say that _most_ film and television actors either aspire to, or in fact do, spend time on the stage.

I'm not sure how often Broadway people find themselves in front of a Camera, but I suspect it's fairly often.

It all depends. Some never do. In real theatre towns, like New York or London, there are many stage actors who never do any television or film, because they're getting plenty of work doing what they love best. Then again, in New York particularly, you have a large core of soap performers who also do theatre. Whether they primarily consider themselves stage actors or soap stars is a personal thing, but many of them pay the rent by doing a soap, and do theatre because they can't _not_ do it.

I've tended to ascribe some of the other cast members comments about O'Hare to having grown up in different "Neighborhoods".

Hardly! Who in the cast was _not_ a stage-trained actor, besides maybe Jerry Doyle and Bruce Boxleitner? Those who were stage-trained include: Andreas, Peter, Mira, Rick Biggs, Jason Carter, Claudia, Julie Caitlin Brown, and of course Michael O'Hare. I'm sure I've left some out, but that's a good start.

There are probably all kinds of reasons Michael O'Hare left the show that we'll never know about, but I wouldn't say it's because he was mainly a stage actor. Isn't it in the commentaries somewhere that JMS says that he prefers working with theatre people, even to the point of those who painted the sets, crafted props, etc.?

Amy (who leans towards musical theatre and Gilbert & Sullivan, personally)

[Paul]

http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html

THE BABYLON-5
THAT NEVER WAS

(New information...updated on 11/11/04...I kid you not) The Babylon-5 project started as a dream, both in reality and in fiction. It was to be the first science fiction television show planned out 100% ahead of time, with a beginning, middle and an end. In November of 1998, it completed its run of five years with the episode Sleeping in Light. It was not an easy journey. So many things got in the way of production. Those that watched the series from day one, followed the rumors, and participated in the struggle to keep B5 on the air, know that not all things ended up the way they were supposed to. Those newcomers to the B5 story (fans at the start of season two or later) may not know the intricacies of what Babylon-5 was meant to be and what Babylon-5 became. This website is meant to be a permanent monument to the Babylon-5 that, in all probability, is lost forever.

EDIT: Most of copyrighted material from another site removed including 3 full posts. Please only post enough to show people that the link would be interesting enough to follow. --Jan

[grumbler]

Originally posted by The_One
Would that have meant that Delenn's great great great Grandmother would have been Delenn?

That's some mind-bending inter-breeding there

No, I don't think Delenn would have gone back in time, thus creating the sad seperation between Delenn and her love that we saw.

Delenn, in the Straczinskiverse, had to pay for her decision to avenge the death of Dukhat. One of the ways she hd to pay was to be bereft of the company of the person she loved more than life itself - not through death (which could be tolerated) but through the workings of the very fate she herself had counted on as a strength.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Jan
So while JMS has said that he knew the last scene from the beginning, the road there was pretty flexible. My impression was that that last scene he spoke of was actually the Station being destroyed, anyway. The scene described for Ladira's vision in 'Signs and Portents' clearly parallels the actual scene in SiL.

Yep. I used to think he meant the Delenn final scene as well, but from what he has said in the meantime (espcecially on the DVDs) it is clear that the final scene he referred to was the destruction of B5 at the hands of its owners.

Pity. I loved the idea that he forsaw Delenn as the bereft lover from the start.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by AislingGrey
Hardly! Who is the cast was _not_ a stage-trained actor, besides maybe Jerry Doyle and Bruce Boxleitner? Those who were stage-trained include: Andreas, Peter, Mira, Rick Biggs, Jason Carter, Claudia, Julie Caitlin Brown, and of course Michael O'Hare. I'm sure I've left some out, but that's a good start.

Further, JMS made a point in his commentary of saying that he sought stage-trained actors and crew because he knew his requirements were more stage-like than TV-like.

There are probably all kinds of reasons Michael O'Hare left the show that we'll never know about, but I wouldn't say it's because he was mainly a stage actor. Isn't it in the commentaries somewhere that JMS says that he prefers working with theatre people, even to the point of those who painted the sets, crafted props, etc.?

Yep, but the contemporaneous interviews with Katsulas, Fuerst, and Jurasik make it clear that O'Hare was extremely uncomfortable in his TV role (even if they did not mention his name, it is clear who they meant). This is not a dig on Michael O'Hare - after all, he was magnificent in his return role - it is merely a recognition that he was not going to be the person originally conceived in JMS's story.

I think it worked out well. I cannot imagine how JMS could have kept up his interest in a "story already told."

[Kloreep]

Thanks for the link, Paul; that's an interesting site.

Though the creator did get some facts wrong, I believe... for instance, about Keffer:

It was pretty obvious that the character wasn't going as he planned and was ejected into sub-space

I think JMS has said he introduced Keffer at WB's request for a "hot-shot pilot" and always planned to kill him off at the end of the season.

Edit: And now that I've got to the end, don't get me started on the common, and mistaken, statement that JMS collapsed a whole season in to 4 and threw things together for Season 5. It was just 4 episodes, people... if the Byron arc is bad, it's simply because it's bad.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I think JMS has said he introduced Keffer at WB's request for a "hot-shot pilot" and always planned to kill him off at the end of the season.

I think that is less strong than JMS put it. He stated that he wanted to kill off the charactor at the first opportunity (nothing against the actor, but the style of the charctor did not fit B5). So it was written, so it was done.

[cornholio1980]

Originally posted by Kloreep
if the Byron arc is bad, it's simply because it's bad.

No, it's because Claudia Christian left...

Concerning this topic: Some interesting speculation! After reading the aforementioned site "B5 that never was" I'm also pretty sure that War without End would have been the Series Finale, with Delenn now being Sinclairs Wife after Catherine went to Z'ha'dum. Still, I think that "SiL" even then was planned to take place some time in the future - since I somehow have my doubts that JMS would have killed of the Station at the end of the "5 year arc" already...

Concerning the "telepath problem" of B5, JMS had to change his story even twice. I somehow have the feeling that if Lyta had stayed from the beginning, she would have left for Vorlon space at the end of season 1 - which I see as rather fitting, since while she left in pursuit of the Vorlons, G'Kar has left to find the Shadows.

Probably one of the smoothest cast changes was the 2. change of telepaths, with Talia's leaving accompanied by Lyta's return. Now we know that Talia's traitor storyline wasn't simply added to get her out - JMS stated in many occasions that she had always been the traitor. But I think it's safe to assume that if Andrea Thompson would have stayed, they would have been able to restore her original personality with the "reflections" that were recorded in the episode "Deathwalker".

Anyway, while I think that it's really fun to speculate about how things would have turned out, I have to finish with stating that except the Telepath Arc in Season 5, I am very happy with the way things turned out.

[Ranger1]

Originally posted by cornholio1980
Now we know that Talia's traitor storyline wasn't simply added to get her out - JMS stated in many occasions that she had always been the traitor.

Not exactly,if my memory serves me right the traitor was Laurel Takashima,and then when she was replaced by Ivanova,it was Ivanova who was the traitor,but JMS switched that cus she had many fans on the show...or something like that.

I think JMS stated that on the Gathering DVD commentery,if someone can check it would be cool,im not at home atm

[LytaaaarGh]

don't know about on the commentary, but he certainly said that Laural and then ivanova were the original sleepers in the 'creating babylon 5' book

*edit 'certainly* to *pretty sure'*

[alex_t]

Originally posted by Ranger1
Not exactly,if my memory serves me right the traitor was Laurel Takashima,and then when she was replaced by Ivanova,it was Ivanova who was the traitor,but JMS switched that cus she had many fans on the show...or something like that.

Nope, JMS always denied that Ivanova was a planned traitor. He said that he thought that everyone will assume that Ivanova will get the traitor plot along with the rest of Takashima functions - so he decided to change it (smack us from behind ). So Talia was traitor from the very beginning (for example already in her first episodes she says "I don't feel like a victim" - but she is).

And it seems to me, that actually the traitor plot was split between Garibaldi's aide and Talia - in different ways of course.

Garibaldi's aide finished what Laurel started, and Talia got personality implant what Laurel should have.

And actually, despite what I wrote above - I still think that the main reason for killing Talia was the fact, that Andrea Thompson is just a bad actress. She looks great, but acts very unnatural.
I also remember her comment on DVD - she said that if she HAD to leave the role, AT LEAST she did it interesting way. It sounds as she did not wanted to leave.

P.S. Anyway, specilation about OH-SO-POSSIBLE Babylon 5 story twists are endless. For example I have two complete alternative arcs in my mind - both for the case if Sinclair would stay in the series

[Jan]

Originally posted by alex_t
And actually, despite what I wrote above - I still think that the main reason for killing Talia was the fact, that Andrea Thompson is just a bad actress. She looks great, but acts very unnatural.
I also remember her comment on DVD - she said that if she HAD to leave the role, AT LEAST she did it interesting way. It sounds as she did not wanted to leave.

What she said at a convention last year is that she requested to be released because she'd discovered that her son wasn't doing well in school (reading, I believe) and that she needed, as a mother, to be able to spend more time with him.

So it's perfectly possible that she didn't want to leave AND that she requested to leave anyway.

Part of the description of Lyta in the B5 bible seemed to relate to Talia. I'll look it up when I get home.

Jan

[alex_t]

Originally posted by Jan
So it's perfectly possible that she didn't want to leave AND that she requested to leave anyway.

Well, on the second thought may be she's just chose to act strange way? Afterall, who knows how tips really behave.
Plus she's really good in "24" (and that's in traditional style of acting).

Part of the description of Lyta in the B5 bible seemed to relate to Talia. I'll look it up when I get home.

Lucky one! You have the bible!