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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    Keeping the thread B5-related, maybe Delenn wasn't saying anything then and she isn't saying anything now...about "it."
    If that is your story, suggest that you stick to it!

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    And while JMS undoubtedly did plan things out an even foreshadow particular line, there is no reason to believe that Dukhat's line about the Vorlons was one of them.
    Well, there IS a reason to believe that the idea that to look upon the face of a Vorlon is to remove all doubt, since that is arguably exactly what this scene is about! Your argument that this scene is not about that line because there is no evidence that the line is used as a basis for this scene is prefectly circular!

    I don't find that argument persuasive either, which is probably one reason why I didn't make it. What you read into what I write is beyond my control.
    I can only read what you post, not what you wanted to post, and what you posted was "The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it." Surely she wants to see if THEY are true, not IT is true, if your statement is correct.

    To try to make this clearer: the "it" (as in "I must know if it is true") refers back to her question, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum" She didn't ask multiple questions of Kosh, so there is no reason for her (or JMS) to use the plural. That her private question about her own understanding of prophecy hinges on the answer to her public question is not something she would share with Kosh and does not change the number of quesitons involved or change a perfectly grammatical "it" into a "they" for no good reason.
    Hmmm. I think I like this answer less than I liked the first one. You are saying that she went to kosh and said that, even though he had answered this question when posed by Lennier, she had grave doubts that his answer was correct, and that she wanted him to repeat it to her in the form of Valerian? You don't see this as being rather insulting and maybe even dangerous?

    No, I don't buy this one at all. Why would she have grave doubts about his ability to say that the Shadows had returned to Z'ha'dum? If that is not what she has grave doubts about, why would she mention having doubts at all if, as you say, she and Kosh were focussed entirely on the question of whether or not the Shadows had returned?

    BTW, are you absolultely sure that what she says is "I must know if it is true?" Been awhile since I've seen the episode and I've got my DVD changer loaded up with Season One of The Shield, so it isn't convenent for me to check at the moment. Be pretty funny if she phrased whatever she said differently and we were pointlessly arguning about what the meaning of "it" is.
    She appears in Kosh's quarters, and says "I have come, as I said I would."

    [Clearly, they have discussed what would happen when Kosh sent word that the Shadows have awakened.]

    She then tells Kosh: "Kosh, I have grave doubts. I must know if it is true. I must see, with my own eyes."

    Kosh then comes out of his encounter suit, and the reaction shot shows Delenn go from fretful to joyous. "Yes. Thank you," she says, "now, I will keep the promise. Goodbye. You will not see me again as I am now." She bows, and leaves.

    So, what did she need to see with her own eyes? She needed to see what she had been told she would see, by the one person she knew who had ever looked upon a Vorlon, Dukhat. What she saw removed all of her doubts, exactly as Dukhat had said it would. So, it was true that to look upon the face of a Vorlon removed all doubts. I think this scenario fits what we see to a "T" and only requires the rather unstrenuous belief that JMS had already decided on the idea that looking at a Vorlon was enough to reassure any of the younger races.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Isn't The Shield supposed to be really good?

    Keeping the thread B5-related, maybe Delenn wasn't saying anything then and she isn't saying anything now...about "it."

    Leave a comment:


  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    1) Dr. Kyle's line is something like, "Once you've looked on the face of a Vorlon, nothing is the same" But he didn't say it to Delenn, and she would never have found out about it, so that he said it is a moot point.

    And while JMS undoubtedly did plan things out an even foreshadow particular line, there is no reason to believe that Dukhat's line about the Vorlons was one of them.

    I don't find your argument that "it" was a mistake (and that delenn's line should have been "I must know that they are true") just does not sound right to me. JMS is better at using the language than that.
    I don't find that argument persuasive either, which is probably one reason why I didn't make it. What you read into what I write is beyond my control.

    To try to make this clearer: the "it" (as in "I must know if it is true") refers back to her question, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum" She didn't ask multiple questions of Kosh, so there is no reason for her (or JMS) to use the plural. That her private question about her own understanding of prophecy hinges on the answer to her public question is not something she would share with Kosh and does not change the number of quesitons involved or change a perfectly grammatical "it" into a "they" for no good reason.

    BTW, are you absolultely sure that what she says is "I must know if it is true?" Been awhile since I've seen the episode and I've got my DVD changer loaded up with Season One of The Shield, so it isn't convenent for me to check at the moment. Be pretty funny if she phrased whatever she said differently and we were pointlessly arguning about what the meaning of "it" is.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joseph DeMartino; 01-30-2005, 02:02 PM.

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  • Michael Malloy
    replied
    Grumbler, I'm a little confused about your statement: "While it is true that JMS did not have any charactor utter the statement "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever," ..." Isn't that exactly the line spoken by Dr. Kyle in the pilot?

    Perhaps I misunderstood you.

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
    I don't think the "it" here refers to Dukhat's statement - and not only because that's a specific line that JMS wouldn't write for another three years or so.

    Delenn asks Lennier if he put her question to Kosh exactly has she gave it to him. He assures her that the did, and relays Kosh's answer. Then Delenn mentions her doubts and goes to see Kosh for herself. Her question was, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?" The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it. When she sees Kosh's angelic form she is assured that the religious prophecy is true, and that her belief in herself is also justified. (Because an "angel" has been watching over her and the station, and teaching her.)
    I am going to disagree with you here. While it is true that JMS did not have any charactor utter the statement "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever," JMS in fact planned out the series in some detail, and had specific lines in mind exactly so that he could forshadow them.

    I don't find your argument that "it" was a mistake (and that delenn's line should have been "I must know that they are true") just does not sound right to me. JMS is better at using the language than that.

    If "it" was Dukhat's statement, then the entire Delenn/Kosh scene works perfectly. She has doubts, and wants to know if it is true that looking in a Vorlon's face erases doubt. Kosh reveals himself, she looks on his face, and her doubts disappear completely.

    If "it" is the prophecy and her role in it, then the scene does not work. She uses the wrong words, Kosh does not know what she is talking aout or how to resolve those doubts, and her sudden and complete transfomation from doubter to enthusiast doesn't make nearly as much sense.

    Maybe someonewho still posts at RASTB5 can ask JMS? It would be interesting to find out for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • funkymikemoses
    replied
    I reckon Delenn saw Valeria (or some other religious icon). The only time Kosh has appeared as anyone's father is in dreams, not from flashing passers by opening his encounter suit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    She says she has "grave doubts" about her course. She says that "I must see if it is true" and Kosh reveals himself. She then agrees to continue with the plan.
    I don't think the "it" here refers to Dukhat's statement - and not only because that's a specific line that JMS wouldn't write for another three years or so.

    Delenn asks Lennier if he put her question to Kosh exactly has she gave it to him. He assures her that the did, and relays Kosh's answer. Then Delenn mentions her doubts and goes to see Kosh for herself. Her question was, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?" The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it. When she sees Kosh's angelic form she is assured that the religious prophecy is true, and that her belief in herself is also justified. (Because an "angel" has been watching over her and the station, and teaching her.)

    Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to belong to any one caste.)
    After the mystery of Sinclair had been revealed JMS was more explicit (or refined his conception of this point) in saying that Valen himself had surpressed realistic likenesses of himself during his own lifetime in order to ensure that no such portraits or sculputres existed in his own time. The danger of someone recognizing him as Valen (as Kosh does on boarding B5 in the re-edit of The Gathering) and somehow altering the timeline was too great.

    Regards,

    Joe

    Leave a comment:


  • vacantlook
    replied
    Just throwing this out there because of its relevance to the Delenn's childhood experience in the temple.

    What Delenn says, if we all go back to the episode in question,
    that a Minbari appeared to her, when she was a child lost in the city
    and wandered into the temple; a vision, telling her that "I will not
    allow harm to come to my little ones here in my great house." (Note:
    "my little ones" being a coy bit of foreshadowing to her being a child
    of Valen, but never mind that for now.)

    Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of
    Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that
    survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by
    whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to
    belong to any one caste.)

    Which, btw, is also what Delenn referred to in season one, when
    she was lost and in fear of death, and she looked to Sinclair with
    reverence and said, "I knew you would come for me."

    jms
    Source Link

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  • bakana
    replied
    Delenn speaks of seeing a figure she thought was Valen in an abandoned temple when she was lost as a child.
    I don't recall that Delenn Ever said anything of the sort.
    Speculation Here and in other forums offered the suggestion that the mysterious figure might have been Valen.

    Delenn was simply describing an event that significantly influenced her inclination toward Religion as her choice of Caste as an adult.

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Re: Re: Chrysalis Question

    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)
    Alas, my memory was playing me false - a case of CRS*. I just had a chance to watch that bit of the ep again to refresh my memory, and Delenn is clearly seeing Kosh for the first time in Crysalis.

    She says she has "grave doubts" about her course. She says that "I must see if it is true" and Kosh reveals himself. She then agrees to continue with the plan.

    I realized that "it" in her statement is clearly Duhkat's statement that "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever" even though we won't actually hear that line of dialogue for another three and a half years!

    It is so cool to find these little tidbits ten years after the series premiered.



    * = can't remember shit

    Leave a comment:


  • JPH3
    replied
    Re: Re: Chrysalis Question

    About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)
    Delenn speaks of seeing a figure she thought was Valen in an abandoned temple when she was lost as a child. Since she doesn't actually know what Valen looks like as an adult, an assumption could be made that the being she saw was an 'angelic' Vorlon, one she mistook for Valen based on what it said to her.

    Her having seen a Vorlon during the ITB period also makes sense. Dukhat said 'To look into the face of a Vorlon is to remove all doubt' (sorry for the paraphrase - I can't remember the exact quote)...and Delenn had plenty to be doubtful about during that period.

    Just a couple of thoughts.

    V/R
    John
    Last edited by JPH3; 01-24-2005, 03:00 PM.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    Re: Chrysalis Question

    Originally posted by jcbatz
    My theory is that Delenn sees Sinclair as Valen. Seeing that connection would validate the prophesy and make her transformation necessary. That is why we never see Kosh through Delenn's eyes.

    What do you think? Sound plausible enough?
    We obviously don't see Kosh through Delenn's eyes then for the same reason we didn't see him through Lyta's eyes in The Gathering or later on when she became Kosh's aide... the revelation of Kosh's appearance was to be a surprise.

    Now seriously, another point you forgot: Delenn didn't know Sinclair would become (was) Valen until War Without End.
    For Kosh to appear to her as Valen/Sinclair would validate no prophecy and would likely only confuse Delenn.

    So I concurr with the assumption that she saw Valeria (most likely) or something closer to Kosh's true form (quite plausible)... or whatever Kosh knew Delenn had to see to be convinced to go through the Chrysalis.

    Kosh was a charming manipulator, but a manipulator nonetheless.

    About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    As I recall that scene, she is asking for ANOTHER look at Kosh, just to be sure. This indictaes that she saw something she had seen or heard of before, which would be Valeria or some other mythic being of the Minbari past (they didn't have gods and angels and the like, if I recall correctly).

    Leave a comment:


  • JPH3
    replied
    I personally think Delenn saw Valeria when Kosh revealed himself to her prior to the Chrysalis. The flapping of wings was evident in that scene. Later, after Kosh left his encounter suit to save Sheridan from the core shuttle explosion, Lennier (and presumably Delenn) saw the same angelic figure, just as every other Minbari present did. Even though she knew it was Kosh (she confirmed this to Sheridan later), she still probably saw what the Vorlon wanted the younger races to see.

    Remember why Vorlons wear encounter suits - they would supposedly be recognized by everyone if they didn't.

    Beings of Light were what the Vorlons had conditioned the Minbari (and the other younger races) to perceive, but the illusion didn't come without a cost. Apparently, it's very taxing on them to maintain that angelic image for long, or in front of large groups - implying that they actively have to manipulate people's perceptions to create the effect.

    Added to that, whether from the violence she was witnessing or from some sort of power the Vorlon had over her, Delenn seemed shocked when she finally saw Kosh II undisguised during S4. Whatever she believed them to look like, it wasn't their actual appearance. I doubt a Vorlon in its true form could have convinced her to go through the Chrysalis - it wasn't something she wanted to do.

    V/R
    John
    Last edited by JPH3; 01-24-2005, 12:13 PM.

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