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  • #16
    I reckon Delenn saw Valeria (or some other religious icon). The only time Kosh has appeared as anyone's father is in dreams, not from flashing passers by opening his encounter suit.
    "Gold chains and watches, the maggot's got plenty.
    He pinched them from ladies and upset the gentry"

    'The Maggot', Goldie Looking Chain

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
      I don't think the "it" here refers to Dukhat's statement - and not only because that's a specific line that JMS wouldn't write for another three years or so.

      Delenn asks Lennier if he put her question to Kosh exactly has she gave it to him. He assures her that the did, and relays Kosh's answer. Then Delenn mentions her doubts and goes to see Kosh for herself. Her question was, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?" The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it. When she sees Kosh's angelic form she is assured that the religious prophecy is true, and that her belief in herself is also justified. (Because an "angel" has been watching over her and the station, and teaching her.)
      I am going to disagree with you here. While it is true that JMS did not have any charactor utter the statement "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever," JMS in fact planned out the series in some detail, and had specific lines in mind exactly so that he could forshadow them.

      I don't find your argument that "it" was a mistake (and that delenn's line should have been "I must know that they are true") just does not sound right to me. JMS is better at using the language than that.

      If "it" was Dukhat's statement, then the entire Delenn/Kosh scene works perfectly. She has doubts, and wants to know if it is true that looking in a Vorlon's face erases doubt. Kosh reveals himself, she looks on his face, and her doubts disappear completely.

      If "it" is the prophecy and her role in it, then the scene does not work. She uses the wrong words, Kosh does not know what she is talking aout or how to resolve those doubts, and her sudden and complete transfomation from doubter to enthusiast doesn't make nearly as much sense.

      Maybe someonewho still posts at RASTB5 can ask JMS? It would be interesting to find out for sure.
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #18
        Grumbler, I'm a little confused about your statement: "While it is true that JMS did not have any charactor utter the statement "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever," ..." Isn't that exactly the line spoken by Dr. Kyle in the pilot?

        Perhaps I misunderstood you.
        Michael Malloy

        Never forget:

        Moscow; Beslan 2004
        Kosovo: 1999, 2004
        New York City: September 11, 2001
        Smyrna: September 9, 1922

        http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-title.html
        Armenian Genocide in Turkey: 1915-1917
        http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

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        • #19
          1) Dr. Kyle's line is something like, "Once you've looked on the face of a Vorlon, nothing is the same" But he didn't say it to Delenn, and she would never have found out about it, so that he said it is a moot point.

          And while JMS undoubtedly did plan things out an even foreshadow particular line, there is no reason to believe that Dukhat's line about the Vorlons was one of them.

          I don't find your argument that "it" was a mistake (and that delenn's line should have been "I must know that they are true") just does not sound right to me. JMS is better at using the language than that.
          I don't find that argument persuasive either, which is probably one reason why I didn't make it. What you read into what I write is beyond my control.

          To try to make this clearer: the "it" (as in "I must know if it is true") refers back to her question, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum" She didn't ask multiple questions of Kosh, so there is no reason for her (or JMS) to use the plural. That her private question about her own understanding of prophecy hinges on the answer to her public question is not something she would share with Kosh and does not change the number of quesitons involved or change a perfectly grammatical "it" into a "they" for no good reason.

          BTW, are you absolultely sure that what she says is "I must know if it is true?" Been awhile since I've seen the episode and I've got my DVD changer loaded up with Season One of The Shield, so it isn't convenent for me to check at the moment. Be pretty funny if she phrased whatever she said differently and we were pointlessly arguning about what the meaning of "it" is.

          Joe
          Last edited by Joseph DeMartino; 01-30-2005, 02:02 PM.
          Joseph DeMartino
          Sigh Corps
          Pat Tallman Division

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          • #20
            Isn't The Shield supposed to be really good?

            Keeping the thread B5-related, maybe Delenn wasn't saying anything then and she isn't saying anything now...about "it."
            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
              And while JMS undoubtedly did plan things out an even foreshadow particular line, there is no reason to believe that Dukhat's line about the Vorlons was one of them.
              Well, there IS a reason to believe that the idea that to look upon the face of a Vorlon is to remove all doubt, since that is arguably exactly what this scene is about! Your argument that this scene is not about that line because there is no evidence that the line is used as a basis for this scene is prefectly circular!

              I don't find that argument persuasive either, which is probably one reason why I didn't make it. What you read into what I write is beyond my control.
              I can only read what you post, not what you wanted to post, and what you posted was "The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it." Surely she wants to see if THEY are true, not IT is true, if your statement is correct.

              To try to make this clearer: the "it" (as in "I must know if it is true") refers back to her question, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum" She didn't ask multiple questions of Kosh, so there is no reason for her (or JMS) to use the plural. That her private question about her own understanding of prophecy hinges on the answer to her public question is not something she would share with Kosh and does not change the number of quesitons involved or change a perfectly grammatical "it" into a "they" for no good reason.
              Hmmm. I think I like this answer less than I liked the first one. You are saying that she went to kosh and said that, even though he had answered this question when posed by Lennier, she had grave doubts that his answer was correct, and that she wanted him to repeat it to her in the form of Valerian? You don't see this as being rather insulting and maybe even dangerous?

              No, I don't buy this one at all. Why would she have grave doubts about his ability to say that the Shadows had returned to Z'ha'dum? If that is not what she has grave doubts about, why would she mention having doubts at all if, as you say, she and Kosh were focussed entirely on the question of whether or not the Shadows had returned?

              BTW, are you absolultely sure that what she says is "I must know if it is true?" Been awhile since I've seen the episode and I've got my DVD changer loaded up with Season One of The Shield, so it isn't convenent for me to check at the moment. Be pretty funny if she phrased whatever she said differently and we were pointlessly arguning about what the meaning of "it" is.
              She appears in Kosh's quarters, and says "I have come, as I said I would."

              [Clearly, they have discussed what would happen when Kosh sent word that the Shadows have awakened.]

              She then tells Kosh: "Kosh, I have grave doubts. I must know if it is true. I must see, with my own eyes."

              Kosh then comes out of his encounter suit, and the reaction shot shows Delenn go from fretful to joyous. "Yes. Thank you," she says, "now, I will keep the promise. Goodbye. You will not see me again as I am now." She bows, and leaves.

              So, what did she need to see with her own eyes? She needed to see what she had been told she would see, by the one person she knew who had ever looked upon a Vorlon, Dukhat. What she saw removed all of her doubts, exactly as Dukhat had said it would. So, it was true that to look upon the face of a Vorlon removed all doubts. I think this scenario fits what we see to a "T" and only requires the rather unstrenuous belief that JMS had already decided on the idea that looking at a Vorlon was enough to reassure any of the younger races.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                Keeping the thread B5-related, maybe Delenn wasn't saying anything then and she isn't saying anything now...about "it."
                If that is your story, suggest that you stick to it!
                I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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