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  • Chrysalis Question

    Whenever we watch Chrysalis, my wife and I question what Delenn sees when she looks at Kosh. Yes, I understand that "if ever you have any doubts, just look at the face of a Vorlon" is justification enough for her visit to Kosh, but WHAT DOES SHE SEE? In Fall of Night, we see Kosh as Valeria - which is what Lennier sees. Again, we never witness Kosh through Delenn's eyes.

    My theory is that Delenn sees Sinclair as Valen. Seeing that connection would validate the prophesy and make her transformation necessary. That is why we never see Kosh through Delenn's eyes.

    What do you think? Sound plausible enough?

  • #2
    I think she sees me,but your theory can work as well
    Sleeping in Light-----Darnit! Shut the Window.

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    • #3
      Seeing Valen would make sense as it would connect with the story from her childhood she related in Season 2. And if he had Sinclair's face doubly so.
      I have the wings for Bingo.

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      • #4
        **** MINOR SPOILER - To Dream In The City Of Sorrows ****

        Knowing that the Vorlons were ruthless manipulators, it would make perfect sense for this to be the case. After all, Kosh has manipulated both Sheridan and G'Kar by appearing to them as their respective fathers (don't forget JS didn't actually know it WAS Kosh because even at the last, he doesn't identify himself - JS figures out who it was on waking). If we are to assume TO DREAM IN THE CITY OF SORROWS is fully canon (as JMS' intro indicates), then he manipulted Marcus too, by appearing as his brother.

        For Kosh to appear to Delenn as the refigured Sinclair/Valen would fit in perfectly with how they work.

        Nice idea
        http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?a...er=dgtwoodward
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        • #5
          My theory is that Delenn sees Sinclair as Valen.
          The only problem with this theory is that neither Delenn nor any other contemporary Minbari has the faintest idea what Valen looked like. There are no photographs, painted portraits or statues of Valen that show anything approaching a real likeness. Valen saw to this himself so that no one who saw Jeffery Sinclair in the 2260s would connect him with the Minbari religious and political leader. (The statue of Valen at the Ranger training facility on Minbar has only a sketch of a face, no defined features.) So there is no way that in looking at any illusion projected by Kosh she could know it was supposed to be Valen. By contrast there must be a conventional appearance that Valeria has that enables all Minbari to recognize her, so suspect that Delenn saw either this or just a "being" of pur light, somethinig clearly evolved beyond the Minbari and the Humans. This would have assured her that we were indeed allying with First Ones and that we would have a chance in the coming war.

          Regards,

          Joe
          Joseph DeMartino
          Sigh Corps
          Pat Tallman Division

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          • #6
            I tend to agree with Joe on this one.

            Delenn Knew she was looking at Kosh.

            For Kosh to appear to her as Valen would make large chuinks of Minbari history a Fraud.
            Valen is the Greatest Hero in Minbari history.
            For him to turn out to be a Vorlon would be a Cheat.

            Personally, I have always suspected that Delenn is a Telepath.
            How strong, I'm not sure, but there is a small amount of evidence.
            Principally, her ability to Know when was being scanned, an ability which is taken as Proof of Ivanova's talent, weak as it was.

            I suspect that, when she looked at Kosh, Delen was allowed to see more than just a Physical form, but a limited glimpse into his Mind.
            Just enough to know Who Kosh was, but not enough to leave her catatonic.

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            • #7
              But what about the loud sound of WINGS FLAPPING when Kosh came out of the encounter suit? I think she Saw Valeria - which could be a male name or even neuter (we don't have to assume it is a female name based on English conventions).

              After Kosh finally did make his desired image known, I realized the glarring hint from the rear view on shoulds shoulders: WINGS!
              Michael Malloy

              Never forget:

              Moscow; Beslan 2004
              Kosovo: 1999, 2004
              New York City: September 11, 2001
              Smyrna: September 9, 1922

              http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-title.html
              Armenian Genocide in Turkey: 1915-1917
              http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

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              • #8
                I personally think Delenn saw Valeria when Kosh revealed himself to her prior to the Chrysalis. The flapping of wings was evident in that scene. Later, after Kosh left his encounter suit to save Sheridan from the core shuttle explosion, Lennier (and presumably Delenn) saw the same angelic figure, just as every other Minbari present did. Even though she knew it was Kosh (she confirmed this to Sheridan later), she still probably saw what the Vorlon wanted the younger races to see.

                Remember why Vorlons wear encounter suits - they would supposedly be recognized by everyone if they didn't.

                Beings of Light were what the Vorlons had conditioned the Minbari (and the other younger races) to perceive, but the illusion didn't come without a cost. Apparently, it's very taxing on them to maintain that angelic image for long, or in front of large groups - implying that they actively have to manipulate people's perceptions to create the effect.

                Added to that, whether from the violence she was witnessing or from some sort of power the Vorlon had over her, Delenn seemed shocked when she finally saw Kosh II undisguised during S4. Whatever she believed them to look like, it wasn't their actual appearance. I doubt a Vorlon in its true form could have convinced her to go through the Chrysalis - it wasn't something she wanted to do.

                V/R
                John
                Last edited by JPH3; 01-24-2005, 12:13 PM.

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                • #9
                  As I recall that scene, she is asking for ANOTHER look at Kosh, just to be sure. This indictaes that she saw something she had seen or heard of before, which would be Valeria or some other mythic being of the Minbari past (they didn't have gods and angels and the like, if I recall correctly).
                  I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Chrysalis Question

                    Originally posted by jcbatz
                    My theory is that Delenn sees Sinclair as Valen. Seeing that connection would validate the prophesy and make her transformation necessary. That is why we never see Kosh through Delenn's eyes.

                    What do you think? Sound plausible enough?
                    We obviously don't see Kosh through Delenn's eyes then for the same reason we didn't see him through Lyta's eyes in The Gathering or later on when she became Kosh's aide... the revelation of Kosh's appearance was to be a surprise.

                    Now seriously, another point you forgot: Delenn didn't know Sinclair would become (was) Valen until War Without End.
                    For Kosh to appear to her as Valen/Sinclair would validate no prophecy and would likely only confuse Delenn.

                    So I concurr with the assumption that she saw Valeria (most likely) or something closer to Kosh's true form (quite plausible)... or whatever Kosh knew Delenn had to see to be convinced to go through the Chrysalis.

                    Kosh was a charming manipulator, but a manipulator nonetheless.

                    About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)
                    Such... is the respect paid to science that the most absurd opinions may become current, provided they are expressed in language, the sound of which recalls some well-known scientific phrase
                    James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Chrysalis Question

                      About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)
                      Delenn speaks of seeing a figure she thought was Valen in an abandoned temple when she was lost as a child. Since she doesn't actually know what Valen looks like as an adult, an assumption could be made that the being she saw was an 'angelic' Vorlon, one she mistook for Valen based on what it said to her.

                      Her having seen a Vorlon during the ITB period also makes sense. Dukhat said 'To look into the face of a Vorlon is to remove all doubt' (sorry for the paraphrase - I can't remember the exact quote)...and Delenn had plenty to be doubtful about during that period.

                      Just a couple of thoughts.

                      V/R
                      John
                      Last edited by JPH3; 01-24-2005, 03:00 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Chrysalis Question

                        Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
                        About grumbler's "another look at Kosh" comment, maybe Delenn had seen Kosh before, during the In The Beginning events? (can't remember for sure)
                        Alas, my memory was playing me false - a case of CRS*. I just had a chance to watch that bit of the ep again to refresh my memory, and Delenn is clearly seeing Kosh for the first time in Crysalis.

                        She says she has "grave doubts" about her course. She says that "I must see if it is true" and Kosh reveals himself. She then agrees to continue with the plan.

                        I realized that "it" in her statement is clearly Duhkat's statement that "once you look on the face of a Vorlon, all doubt is removed, forever" even though we won't actually hear that line of dialogue for another three and a half years!

                        It is so cool to find these little tidbits ten years after the series premiered.



                        * = can't remember shit
                        I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Delenn speaks of seeing a figure she thought was Valen in an abandoned temple when she was lost as a child.
                          I don't recall that Delenn Ever said anything of the sort.
                          Speculation Here and in other forums offered the suggestion that the mysterious figure might have been Valen.

                          Delenn was simply describing an event that significantly influenced her inclination toward Religion as her choice of Caste as an adult.

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                          • #14
                            Just throwing this out there because of its relevance to the Delenn's childhood experience in the temple.

                            What Delenn says, if we all go back to the episode in question,
                            that a Minbari appeared to her, when she was a child lost in the city
                            and wandered into the temple; a vision, telling her that "I will not
                            allow harm to come to my little ones here in my great house." (Note:
                            "my little ones" being a coy bit of foreshadowing to her being a child
                            of Valen, but never mind that for now.)

                            Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of
                            Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that
                            survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by
                            whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to
                            belong to any one caste.)

                            Which, btw, is also what Delenn referred to in season one, when
                            she was lost and in fear of death, and she looked to Sinclair with
                            reverence and said, "I knew you would come for me."

                            jms
                            Source Link

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                            • #15
                              She says she has "grave doubts" about her course. She says that "I must see if it is true" and Kosh reveals himself. She then agrees to continue with the plan.
                              I don't think the "it" here refers to Dukhat's statement - and not only because that's a specific line that JMS wouldn't write for another three years or so.

                              Delenn asks Lennier if he put her question to Kosh exactly has she gave it to him. He assures her that the did, and relays Kosh's answer. Then Delenn mentions her doubts and goes to see Kosh for herself. Her question was, "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum?" The thing she needs to assure herself about is really two things - 1) The validity of Minbari prophecy and the coming war and 2) Her interpretation of that prophecy and her own role in it. When she sees Kosh's angelic form she is assured that the religious prophecy is true, and that her belief in herself is also justified. (Because an "angel" has been watching over her and the station, and teaching her.)

                              Obviously there were many drawings and pictures and records of Valen, but most were destroyed in the Great War. And those that survived have been, over a thousand years, idealized and distorted by whichever caste is currently claiming him as theirs. (Valen refused to belong to any one caste.)
                              After the mystery of Sinclair had been revealed JMS was more explicit (or refined his conception of this point) in saying that Valen himself had surpressed realistic likenesses of himself during his own lifetime in order to ensure that no such portraits or sculputres existed in his own time. The danger of someone recognizing him as Valen (as Kosh does on boarding B5 in the re-edit of The Gathering) and somehow altering the timeline was too great.

                              Regards,

                              Joe
                              Joseph DeMartino
                              Sigh Corps
                              Pat Tallman Division

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