Can we just leave it alone?

[DawnTreader]

i am a great fan of B5. i think that there has been no other scifi show of any kind, other than the Lord of the Rings and the Matrix series, which captivated my attention like B5 had.

unfortunately i dont agree with bringing this show back in any form. leave it alone. if JMS himself reads this message, then please JM move on, do something else, find another grand story to tell in another universe. you created something great, but towards the end the quality really died off.

to all you B5 fans who are about to flame me, be honest, did season 5 work well? and who really wanted crusade to continue? B5 was good upto season 4 finale, then the general quality of the show went a little down hill. and crusade wont even get a spot in my DVD collection.

i am concerned about the recasting possibilities that i heard about and brought me to this site, but not because my favorite cast might be recast, but because i am afraid for the next level of damage that could be caused by trying to shock some life into what should remain buried.

let me say it in 2 words "Phantom Menace"

[Ranger1]

Well,youre giving a bad example,i have a good example for you:
Star-Trek the original movies,can you seriously think of anyone else beside the original actors in them? hmmmmm don't think so.

And since you claim you are a B5 fan you should already know that the entire B5 crew thought that season 4 was the last season,if JMS knew he would get to do season 5 don't you think he would drag the earth conflict onto season 5 a bit?

Personally i don't follow JMS blindly,Crusade i didn't like,but as a fan from the beginning of the original show i always knew JMS would make a movie (he said it),and now its finally here,and personally i can't wait.

[Jan]

Re: Can we just leave it alone?

Originally posted by DawnTreader
to all you B5 fans who are about to flame me, be honest, did season 5 work well?

Hi, DawnTreader,

We're not much for flaming around here as long as folks are polite. As for your questions:

Yep I liked Season 5. I liked the experimental episodes a lot and was frankly relieved to have a breather from the breakneck pace. As good as it was, Season 4 was simply too compacted.

You said the quality fell off in Season 5. Can you give an example of somthing quality related? I have a feeling it's a matter of taste instead.

and who really wanted crusade to continue?

I did. Very much. I loved the characters and I was getting a glimps of where the story was going. Nope, it wasn't perfect but I thought it was superior to B5 Season 1.

B5 was good upto season 4 finale, then the general quality of the show went a little down hill. and crusade wont even get a spot in my DVD collection.

i am concerned about the recasting possibilities that i heard about and brought me to this site, but not because my favorite cast might be recast, but because i am afraid for the next level of damage that could be caused by trying to shock some life into what should remain buried.

let me say it in 2 words "Phantom Menace"

Why not judge it my its own merits instead?

Jan

[Night Marshal]

I'm with DawnTreader to a point I agree that season 5 loses all the momentum that the show had built and at the beginning of the fifth season, the show starts out flat. The pace is slowed down and most of the early eps while linked work just as well as one shots. That being said by the end of the Telepath Arc B5 is rolling again, yes, you don't get the feel of the shadow or earth wars but I also think that in the falling action of a story you shouldn't really fell that any ways. In a many ways, The Fall of Centauri Prime is like the Scouring of the Shire in the Lord of the Rings. ItÆs not meant to be the biggest conflict it meant to show price of war and our decisions. In addition, to that End I think that the fall of the Centauri Prime while not the best arc in Babylon 5 it is probably the most touching and it allows Babylon 5 to end its story in a way that is meaningful to the fan regardless of when they came into the series. DawnTreader if you have never had the chance to sit through all the eps in season 5 and watch them all at once and have only seen them when TNT first aired them that might be part of your dislike of Season 5. For some reason when TNT first aired Season 5 I really hated it but when I sat through it on DVD it liked it so much more and could see if for the concussion it was.

As for the movie, I honestly don't know anymore. I know regardless of who is in the movie JMS has a story to tell and he will do all is a power to tell that story. I think JMS loves Babylon 5 more than any of us and the characters in the image of the actors who played them and to see the character be messed with for the purpose of profit must be tearing him up inside. It honestly makes me sad but I know he does it because he wants us to hear those characters again just as he does.

I hope we get a movie and I hope it honors the sprite and voices of Babylon 5

[grumly]

For me, season 5 is one of the best and except for the telepath arc in the middle of the season there's some of the best episodes of the show in this season with for instance "The long night of Londo Mollari" or "The fall of Centauri Prime" (I'm a big fan of Londo ).

The season 4 was too fast, everything was on the rush and there was no time to pay attention to the feelings of the characters. In fact, it even led to ridiculous things like when Sheridan after having been tortured for almost a week, get up, come back to his ship and is ready to kick the ass of everybody . I know that this is because jms wanted to conclude the main plot before the end of season 4 and I don't blame him for that but I think this is one of the many reasons which make me think that season 5 is one of the best.

In the season 5 everything is slower and although some people think it's bad and that it broke the momentum of the show I think it was a good thing because it allowed us to take a deep breath and to think about what happen in season 3 and 4. Season 5 works as a conclusion like season 1 worked as an introduction, it ends the show quietly and in the most beautiful way.

Concerning Crusade I think it could have made a great show, in fact this is a great show, incomplete but great . The characters are good and the story to. In fact Crusade is better than the first season of B5, better story, better SFX, ...

Finally, concerning the motion picture and don't see why it could be a bad thing, if jms can do what he wants, it could be a very good movie and if it bring money to WB we could have more b5 stuff in the future and I don't have any problem with that . B5 universe is big and there's a lot of story to tell...

[circularREASON]

I found season 5 to be ok - about on par with season 1 & 2.

I have heard complaints about the TELEPATH ARC but to be honest I found it quite moving.

Londos' decent into slavery at the hands of the Drakh made wonderful viewing. Also the hand over of B5 to the new generation when Sheridan and Delenn leave was very moving.

And Lennier getting all hot under the collar about Delenn....

and then theres SLEEPING IN LIGHT which is probably worth the price of the set on its own.

I must admit I cried like a baby when I watched that one.

I can't get my hands on S5 until the 17th, but I will buy it and complete my collection. ( well apart from the movies that is ).

and look forward to whatever comes next in the B5 universe.

[TryTheSpoo]

RE: Season 4

Hello,

I just wanted to chime in, cuz hey, what else is this place for?

Not that JMS or the season 4 vs season 5 situation needs defense or explanation to any of us, I just wanted to point this out.

In the middle of season 4, even running at the break neck pace some have said, even believing that he was going to have to wrap everything up with no season 5, he still put "Intersections In Real Time" into season 4.

Think of the extra arc material, extra backround material, extra character work that could have gone into that episode. But, telling the story he wanted to tell demanded that he devote an entire episode to Sherridan in a box.

Season 5 is no ones 'fault' It should not be looked at as anything other than what it is, 21 more episodes of a show that I love that I came **THIS** close to not getting.

I'll take all the new B5 I can get.

[Capt.Montoya]

Re: Can we just leave it alone?

The answer, from my part, is a resounding NO.
This is not the time to leave B5 alone.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
i am a great fan of B5. i think that there has been no other scifi show of any kind, other than the Lord of the Rings and the Matrix series, which captivated my attention like B5 had.

unfortunately i dont agree with bringing this show back in any form. leave it alone. if JMS himself reads this message, then please JM move on, do something else, find another grand story to tell in another universe. you created something great, but towards the end the quality really died off.

to all you B5 fans who are about to flame me, be honest, did season 5 work well? and who really wanted crusade to continue? B5 was good upto season 4 finale, then the general quality of the show went a little down hill. and crusade wont even get a spot in my DVD collection.

i am concerned about the recasting possibilities that i heard about and brought me to this site, but not because my favorite cast might be recast, but because i am afraid for the next level of damage that could be caused by trying to shock some life into what should remain buried.

let me say it in 2 words "Phantom Menace"

I think the comparison to Star Wars doesn't fit, George Lucas was never such a good writer nor director. Had Lucas gone the same route he did with Empire Strikes Back (have real writers finish the script and a better director) that wouldn't even be an example.

Another point to consider with regards to Season 5: all the seasons of B5 started slow. Even season 4 started with some recap and slower pace.
This was due to the reality of the TV business, a new season may attract new viewers and you have to give them a chance to catch up.
With the fifth season there was the expectation that TNT viewers that had never seen B5 would start watching from season 5 (and slowly get the rest of the story from the reruns). So I'll add that factor to the reasons S5 seemed slow, it wasn't only that all the main arc threads had been resolved in S4.

But maybe I'm just biased... I did like season 5, it did have good stories, and the fall of Centauri Prime arc (as others have said) was superb. You can't fight a war and not expect repercusions, that arc made it very poignantly clear.

Also, the show is not being brought back. The main saga of Babylon 5 is over.
But the universe of Babylon 5 and Crusade still has lots of room for further stories.

At this point it seems unlikely those stories will be told in another series (but I still hold hopes for a Crusade revival), however they migh be told in a series of movies (a trilogy... funny how it's always trilogies).
And at this moment it's all gearing up for the first of those movies, after much time of rumors and hopes for a movie.

So, no, let's not leave it alone.

If TMoS turned out to be a disappointment I might agree with you but that is, for the time being, an unrealized reality.

[cornholio1980]

I never quite understood the disappointment many B5-Fans felt with Season 5. Was it on par with Season 4? No, but for me, S4 is an absolutely outstanding part of television history anyway, since in my opinion no season of any other show comes even close in terms of intensity, drama, action and story. And while I'll agree that S5 startet rather slow (to slow?) and that the Telepath Arc lost tremendously because Claudia Christian left the show, the Drakh-Storyline together with Garibaldi's problems really got me hooked again. "A view from the gallery", "Day of the Dead", "The Ragged Edge", "The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father", "The Fall of Centauri Prime", "Wheel of Fire", "Objects in Motion" as well as "Objects at Rest" are definitely episodes that I don't wanna miss. And, as was stated here before, "Sleeping in light" alone would have been reason enough for me to buy the S5-box - one of the most emotional experiences in my life.

[Shadow-Sentient]

I find the criticisms of Season 5 to be more reactionary than logical. The sudden shift from fast paced to slow, is enough to lose a good majority of American audience members for the sheer fact that they tend to be adrenaline junkies, despite varying levels of intelligence.

There were several key episodes in Season 5 ... for instance ... we would have never seen the full arcs of Londo and G'Kar, at least not as far as G'Kar's ascension to a Christ-like figure, and Londo's tragedy and ultimate redemption ... (Which is revealed in "In the Beginning" the Season 5 movie opener when he gets his last chance to save himself by freeing Sheridan and Delenn.)
A View From the Gallery will always be a favorite of mine simply for the sheer genius in looking at the story from another perspective. It followed with the earlier seasons and how the "Worker castes" were always overlooked, left to clean up after everyone, dutifully doing and not questioning. This episode alone justified season 5 for me, not to mention the Garibaldi-falling off the friggin' wagon bit, the Lochley dynamic where she had to defend her actions during the war, the entire aftermath and consequences of the war. How about the League of Non-Aligned Worlds defying Sheridan and attacking Centauri Prime in an act of vengeance orchestrated and manipulated by the Drahk? Londo's realization that he had been played by Morden? and Sleeping in Light, filmed at the end of Season 4 or not, will always be the last episode of Season 5 for me. It was the finest hour I have ever witnessed on television ... end of story.
In short, the dislike of Season 5 by certain fans I see motivated more by lack of the Adrenaline rush than anything esle and after citing all of the above, I simply just can't agree with them.

"A Call to Arms" however? ... that's a different story. I don't know what happened to the writing in that episode but it was filled with hasty generalizations and 'jumped to' conclusions. Things made sense only in a haphazard sort of way and plot complication solution was on par with the average Trek episode. Boxleitner, Doyle, and Dobro carried a weak script (which is highly unusual for JMS) with brilliant acting. Oh yeah, loathed the music ... very anti-climatic, Franke's absence was felt.

As far as bringing the show back? I think that movies should definitely be made. There are many stories that could be told in that Universe. As many stories as there are lives and interesting occurences in the Universe. I would be sad to not see the faces that have become so ingrained in the Babylon 5 experience, but happy that the Universe itself lives on. Still, I am joining Joe D. and the campaigners in writing WB. Long Live B5!

[Sigma]

Originally posted by Shadow-Sentient
In short, the dislike of Season 5 by certain fans I see motivated more by lack of the Adrenaline rush than anything esle and after citing all of the above, I simply just can't agree with them.

For me 'how' is more important than 'what'. It's not what the story is but how it is told. And Season5 for most part is not a good storytelling.

But i like S5, it's far from S3-4 quality but still OK. IMO Centauri War is the most boring arc element in B5 (i rather watch "Grey17 is Missing" than "Movement of Shadow and Fire") but i really like "Torn Asunder" and last 4 episodes.

[WorkerCaste]

Hello DawnTreader, and welcome. In answer to your questions, I liked S5, although it was not my favorite, but I did not feel that it was because of a decrease in quality. I loved Crusade, am glad to have it sitting on my shelf, and will enjoy revisiting it from time to time in bittersweet appreciation for what might have been. I even liked the Rangers TV movie, although some things needed to be smoothed out for series IMO.

Still, I can honestly say that I sometimes think things should be left alone. Often they get pushed to far. "The only sequel that ever loses money is the last one!" For me, though, I look at a B5 feature as an opportunity for all these good and dedicated people to take their shot at the more glamorous end of the industry, and my faith in their talent is such that I think they deserve it and will do a good job of it.

[Shadow-Sentient]

Originally posted by Sigma
For me 'how' is more important than 'what'. It's not what the story is but how it is told. And Season5 for most part is not a good storytelling.

But i like S5, it's far from S3-4 quality but still OK. IMO Centauri War is the most boring arc element in B5 (i rather watch "Grey17 is Missing" than "Movement of Shadow and Fire") but i really like "Torn Asunder" and last 4 episodes.

Fair enough,

Leave it to diversity of opinion. I however was happy to have the storyline continue and both satisified and perturbed at its conclusion. I must still disagree that season 5 was not good storytelling ... it nailed down and concluded the story arcs. Season four only concluded some of them .
The morose tone by which Season 5 took it's final bow was testament to the dour nature by which it was seeing it's finality and fate. To me, that means more than the explosions and carnage wrought upon us by the end of Season 4 ... this does not mean I didn't like season four, In fact, I very much did, but I don't see season 5 undermining the previous years because it became more introspective.
And shame on you for praising the "Grey 17 Is Missing" story just to make your point ... shame shame shame ...

[KoshN]

Re: Can we just leave it alone?

Originally posted by DawnTreader


...be honest, did season 5 work well?

Whenever Byron was nowhere to be found, yes. The Centauri arc is reason enough to have the Season 5 DVD set. Lyta's growing powers were also of interest to me.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
... and who really wanted crusade to continue?

I did/do, though without TNT interference. I'd love to see that story continued in any way possible. Novels would be fine by me.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
B5 was good upto season 4 finale, then the general quality of the show went a little down hill....

...and then went back up again, as soon as Byron was gone.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
... and crusade wont even get a spot in my DVD collection.

Your loss. As far as I'm concerned, the existing Crusade episodes are the last thing we have that was anywhere near true to the B5 universe.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
... i am concerned about the recasting possibilities that i heard about and brought me to this site, but not because my favorite cast might be recast, but because i am afraid for the next level of damage that could be caused by trying to shock some life into what should remain buried.

If Warner Brothers insists on recasting past B5 and/or Crusade characters, it should remain buried. I'd rather the story continue in novels than in some re-imagined movie.

Originally posted by DawnTreader
let me say it in 2 words "Phantom Menace"

Not really applicable to this argument. Recasting because the film takes place in a significantly different time period, makes sense. The B5 film will be taking place roughly around the time of "A Call to Arms" and Crusade, not 20 or 30 years earlier or later than what we saw on TV.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Sigma
For me 'how' is more important than 'what'. It's not what the story is but how it is told. And Season5 for most part is not a good storytelling.

Not good storytelling? I never4 understood this complaint. It was not the best storytelling JMS had ever done, for sure, because as he admitted S5 was a late ad-on that was never intended as anything but a "finish what you started so we can move on to the sequel" effort. In a sense, the B5 movies represented better what JMS was involved in that year.

But to call "The Paragon of Animals" not good storytelling? Absurd. This ep was one of the very best in the whole 5-year arc - maybe the best standalone ep of them all.